grazorblade said:

The other thing about a salary cap is it hurts incentives to improve the quality.

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A closed off league without promotion and relegation does that anyway....

This comes up from time to time. The question is not should there be a salary cap, the questions is do you want a league where a few clubs dominate every year, or do you want a league where smaller clubs have a chance more often. Do you want something like the old firm in Scotland or the J-league? I think the setup we have now is much better than in Europe and Europe would benefit from a salary cap.

People always invoke the Leicester City outlier, but they are a true outlier, which their two subsequent relegations attest to. I don't think you will find as European league with as many different winners compared to the first 10 years of Aliga. This is definitely a better scenario for Australian fans / market. I would argue better for any league, but maybe people who like supporting Spurs or Newcastle or Everton knowing they will never win.


You can actually see as they salary cap restrictions have reduced, Sydney and City started to have more consistent success over everyone else. Bigger budgets, better able to retain better players.




Grow the league, all the clubs and the salary cap. I don't think this is achieved by having a few teams win all the time, and other teams never winning. If you live in Newcastle (UK), you probably still go because what the fuck else is there to do. But if you live in Newcastle (Aus), fuck it you can just go to the beach, go to a RL game, watch aerial ping pong on tv, hell even just go outside in the sun with your mates. Giving everyone a chance matters.

Cunningstunt said:

This comes up from time to time. The question is not should there be a salary cap, the questions is do you want a league where a few clubs dominate every year, or do you want a league where smaller clubs have a chance more often. Do you want something like the old firm in Scotland or the J-league? I think the setup we have now is much better than in Europe and Europe would benefit from a salary cap.

People always invoke the Leicester City outlier, but they are a true outlier, which their two subsequent relegations attest to. I don't think you will find as European league with as many different winners compared to the first 10 years of Aliga. This is definitely a better scenario for Australian fans / market. I would argue better for any league, but maybe people who like supporting Spurs or Newcastle or Everton knowing they will never win.
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You can actually see as they salary cap restrictions have reduced, Sydney and City started to have more consistent success over everyone else. Bigger budgets, better able to retain better players.
View attachment 1642

View attachment 1643

Grow the league, all the clubs and the salary cap. I don't think this is achieved by having a few teams win all the time, and other teams never winning. If you live in Newcastle (UK), you probably still go because what the fuck else is there to do. But if you live in Newcastle (Aus), fuck it you can just go to the beach, go to a RL game, watch aerial ping pong on tv, hell even just go outside in the sun with your mates. Giving everyone a chance matters.

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a luxury tax achieves almost as much equity as a salary cap but is more financially viable (as ambitious clubs end up subsidizing weaker clubs) and allows the league to grow. The salary cap has been pretty flat for 2 decades now, it doesn't seem to be a recipe for the league to grow

If there are exceptions, which there are, then you may as well scrap it. You then get into a situation where you are restricting at the top unnecessarily, and as a result, holding back the comp.

For example if City want to bring in Neymar with an eye to compete in Asian comps, not just A-League, they can't do that because of the salary cap.

They can, however, have enough exemptions to be consistently better than Newcastle Jets. So what's the point?

HappyGuus said:

Can you tell me more about the AFL's experience with the cap floor? I'd like to read about that.

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The salary floor was introduced in 1990 as West Coast Eagles and Adelaide Crows, the new franchisees, had much larger memberships than the existing clubs (no longer the case) allowing them to poach and tilt the competition. This was to prevent the two clubs from dominating every season. The non-player salary caps were introduced later.

LFC said:

well tbh I don't know any pro has ever tried P/R in the first place hence never made to work..
Certainly don't expect the eggball codes ever to bother with this system like football does world over.

A east coast based P/R would be viable as long as there's the naming rights sponser/s/broadcast deal and the FA kicking in plus the Clubs chasing their sponsers and fund raising.
With all that money paying for those over sized stads the current Pro game forks out that saving alone would cover alot of air travels.

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In Victoria for decades there were two Aussie Rules comps: the old VFL (est. 1897) and the VFA (est. 1877). The VFA had P/R. The VFA no longer exists, the AFL re-created the VFL and absorbed the surviving clubs from the VFA and re-introduced the seconds for AFL clubs. Admittedly, the sports codes are now run like entertainment businesses compared to back then.

As highlighted above there are a lot of ifs. And having seen the way some of the local clubs are run, I cannot see the ifs becoming viable.

Frankly Speaking said:

We need something to breath life into the A League. Right now its like watching a train wreck in ultra slow motion.

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The football and more importantly the youth are continuing to improve. Given that the football is the primary product, then we can see that it will take time to filter through. Given that the 7 Network owns the right to the AFL, and 9 network owns the rights to NRL, the AL will not get any assistance from them. For me, the APL needs to promote it's youth teams as the U20 made it into the 9 & 7 news bulletins. Also, we need to get on the ABC's back and tell them to report the AL results from the previous day. I am sick of listening to the ABC news in the morning and no mention of the scores for the AL.

grazorblade said:

The other thing about a salary cap is it hurts incentives to improve the quality. Ideally you start climbing the ladder by getting better transfer fees and reinvesting that money into better squads

A league deficits are so big mind you that there might be enough incentive to try and max out transfer revenue even if tv revenue improves

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The penny has dropped and most AL clubs are investing in developing youth for sale. This should stem the red ink, and lead to better football. Salary caps do not hurt incentives for clubs - all it means is that they cannot spend their way into bankruptcy and provides for a more even competition.
Personally, I would like to see the APL ensure that all clubs have similar standard of facilities. If this means that the APL ends up owning stadiums in Queensland or Perth, then so be it. Then the clubs will need to work hard in developing the human infrastructure to develop the players.

someguyjc said:

Has any professional sport in Australia even attempted to make it work? I can't think of any.
There is P&R in the NPL. Doesn't seem to be a problem there.

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The NSL tried it.

TheSelectFew said:

If there are exceptions, which there are, then you may as well scrap it. You then get into a situation where you are restricting at the top unnecessarily, and as a result, holding back the comp.

For example if City want to bring in Neymar with an eye to compete in Asian comps, not just A-League, they can't do that because of the salary cap.

They can, however, have enough exemptions to be consistently better than Newcastle Jets. So what's the point?

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They could bring in Neymar. outside the cap. They couldn't bring Neymar, Messi, Ronaldo.
Even with the exceptions, ccm managed to win for a couple of years. This would have been far more unlikely with no cap. Which is the point. The bigger richer clubs still win more often, but it evens it just enough.

I don't mind the bit of flexibility as the league gets bigger. I would probably prefer some tax type set up. But even a choice between no cap and cap, that is an easy cap choice. The league gets nothing out of City or Sydney winning every year. Or some new billionaire dropping in for a few years of interest.

Monoethnic Social Club said:

A closed off league without promotion and relegation does that anyway....

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they both contribute

Australia isn't ready for a professional league. Time to go back to semi-pro as the Z-league has already turned into a youth development league. May as well make it sustainable.

Sutherlandbear said:

The NSL tried it.

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what didn't they try Sutho.
They tried to action a national H/A comp but what would you expect way back then, nothing.
Going back as far as the 60/70's onwards nothing could get going properly.
The State Feds didn't like to lose power like to this day, Pongrass/St G Lowy/Hakoah wished but Vic Clubs didn't.
Hence conference systems etc, nothing was going to work those dark ages for as you know there was no uniformity so moot tbh.
Surely we can look ahead for a better and informed future.

Ah ok Cunning, I recall from up here there was the VFL, never heard of the other being in the dark re that games backgrounds and don't thonk it applies much for am I right this was just in Vic ?

Your last sentence :
As highlighted above there are a lot of ifs. And having seen the way some of the local clubs are run, I cannot see the ifs becoming viable.

Are you talking about local NPL Clubs above ?

LFC said:

what didn't they try Sutho.
They tried to action a national H/A comp but what would you expect way back then, nothing.
Going back as far as the 60/70's onwards nothing could get going properly.
The State Feds didn't like to lose power like to this day, Pongrass/St G Lowy/Hakoah wished but Vic Clubs didn't.
Hence conference systems etc, nothing was going to work those dark ages for as you know there was no uniformity so moot tbh.
Surely we can look ahead for a better and informed future.

Ah ok Cunning, I recall from up here there was the VFL, never heard of the other being in the dark re that games backgrounds and don't thonk it applies much for am I right this was just in Vic ?

Your last sentence :
As highlighted above there are a lot of ifs. And having seen the way some of the local clubs are run, I cannot see the ifs becoming viable.

Are you talking about local NPL Clubs above ?

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It is my cross to bear to educate the ignorant. VFA was only in Victoria.

Yup. NPL clubs rely a lot on volunteers and that varies from club to club. I know one NPL club which has gone from lowest of the lowest rungs to be ready for promotion into the NPL1 and I know of another that is a plodding club. The difference is that the former has a lot of professionals whose ego is stroked at work, the latter has a lot of people whose ego is stroked at the club.

Cunningstunt said:

Even with the exceptions, ccm managed to win for a couple of years. This would have been far more unlikely with no cap. Which is the point. The bigger richer clubs still win more often, but it evens it just enough.

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Yeah I suppose it benefits where we are as a football nation that we should focus less on how much is spent and instead on how it's spent. We certainly need to be efficient with spending when we're running on fumes.

WhatAmIWatching said:

It is my cross to bear to educate the ignorant. VFA was only in Victoria.

Yup. NPL clubs rely a lot on volunteers and that varies from club to club. I know one NPL club which has gone from lowest of the lowest rungs to be ready for promotion into the NPL1 and I know of another that is a plodding club. The difference is that the former has a lot of professionals whose ego is stroked at work, the latter has a lot of people whose ego is stroked at the club.

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happy not being in the loop of the southern game - killed its own fellow opposing comp by the sound of it.

Your last paragraph confirms the beauty of football as we should embrace with open arms......
Competition is that in its entirity, the have's and the have not's, the leaders/management that keep on the ball and those that not and thats the price to pay.
Smart management reap the rewards.
The long time winners taking their eye off the ball, the losers who re group after being back in the shadows climb back to the top.
Great stories that people/supporters live and die for the club badge.
Even those at the highest level whose ego's ballooned ala Man United - and Not Forest taking their place, who have suffered relo 3/4 times and earned their place back into top flight in '22 now vying for a top 4 finish and europe.
Another example as you've expressed of 2 NPL clubs unlike a league that the bottom half have nothing to lose and back next season no matter their failure.

Ofcourse many many of our semi pro clubs are not run as polished as required turning Pro but when you've not had that opportunity and support for 20+yrs this is not surprising BUT it also doesn't say it can't be done as well, the game below is a survivor - needs vision leadership.
In the FA's court, they have the intel of the past failures, they have set up the guidelines for a Championship as a stepping stone we all should hope and support 110% so as a Pro2 level emerges after all this time the game been in hibernation/limbo and negative restraints from all around.........

WhatAmIWatching said:

The football and more importantly the youth are continuing to improve. Given that the football is the primary product, then we can see that it will take time to filter through. Given that the 7 Network owns the right to the AFL, and 9 network owns the rights to NRL, the AL will not get any assistance from them. For me, the APL needs to promote it's youth teams as the U20 made it into the 9 & 7 news bulletins. Also, we need to get on the ABC's back and tell them to report the AL results from the previous day. I am sick of listening to the ABC news in the morning and no mention of the scores for the AL.

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7 and 9 will not mention the aleague based of thier own interests unless they want to but channel 10 can and should do a lot more especially with paramount.
News corp are still bitter from thier divorce with the FA and APL so no chance but agree with the way ABC promotes sport is disappointing to say at least.

If we are to have promotion and relegation, salary cap will have to be removed at some point soon.

Therefore, for now, I think a "luxury tax" similar to NBA is a good idea. Lets those who want to spend, spend.

Then distribute the said income from luxury tax to grassroots or youth development programs etc.

Similar thing is happening with NBL, salary cap is too low and the better players are now heading to China, Europe etc.

Different with NRL and AFL as there is no international market/competition.

biggiemic said:

If we are to have promotion and relegation, salary cap will have to be removed at some point soon.

Therefore, for now, I think a "luxury tax" similar to NBA is a good idea. Lets those who want to spend, spend.

Then distribute the said income from luxury tax to grassroots or youth development programs etc.

Similar thing is happening with NBL, salary cap is too low and the better players are now heading to China, Europe etc.

Different with NRL and AFL as there is no international market/competition.

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Interesting point re NBL...

biggiemic said:

Similar thing is happening with NBL, salary cap is too low and the better players are now heading to China, Europe etc.

Different with NRL and AFL as there is no international market/competition.

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Not saying I disagree. But it's one thing to remove or increase the cap, it's another for any Oz club to actually afford to pay more. All seems a bit pointless at the moment as they're broke.

The league as a whole is probably only averaging one marquee in recent seasons when they've allowed for 26. Until the clubs actually have money AND want to spend it, the cap is practically ineffectual. Losing our better players to overseas is a fact of life right now, we can't afford to keep them here.

Cunningstunt said:

This comes up from time to time. The question is not should there be a salary cap, the questions is do you want a league where a few clubs dominate every year, or do you want a league where smaller clubs have a chance more often. Do you want something like the old firm in Scotland or the J-league? I think the setup we have now is much better than in Europe and Europe would benefit from a salary cap.

People always invoke the Leicester City outlier, but they are a true outlier, which their two subsequent relegations attest to. I don't think you will find as European league with as many different winners compared to the first 10 years of Aliga. This is definitely a better scenario for Australian fans / market. I would argue better for any league, but maybe people who like supporting Spurs or Newcastle or Everton knowing they will never win.
View attachment 1644

You can actually see as they salary cap restrictions have reduced, Sydney and City started to have more consistent success over everyone else. Bigger budgets, better able to retain better players.
View attachment 1642

View attachment 1643

Grow the league, all the clubs and the salary cap. I don't think this is achieved by having a few teams win all the time, and other teams never winning. If you live in Newcastle (UK), you probably still go because what the fuck else is there to do. But if you live in Newcastle (Aus), fuck it you can just go to the beach, go to a RL game, watch aerial ping pong on tv, hell even just go outside in the sun with your mates. Giving everyone a chance matters.

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interesting CS.
Your right many people here go F it, many invested in winter football, it lacks, people couldn't be bothered but so few in the summer for starters.
Yer I'll go to the beach or bbq instead watching my team (not that I have one) or game that means absolutely nothing once the top 6 have been set.
What is the damn point going to any game if you support one of the remainder 7 clubs have nothing to lose or play for when it could/should be.....
Making sure a opposing club is in relo battle, see one club fight till last game to survive, see another club just inch out of trouble.
So you like having varied winners but no losers to learn a lesson and reward others and then this stupid game here penalise's success sell off their core players who won the title for the club and fans, talk about being pissed off as a supporter they way I see it.

Looking back 20yrs am I right that AL has had 6 diff winners ?
I quickly sussed out the boring EPL/euro snob outlook from here last 20yr winners, 00 on.
You know has P/R, 38 H/A odd games.
6 diff winners if I glanced right.

biggiemic said:

If we are to have promotion and relegation, salary cap will have to be removed at some point soon.

Therefore, for now, I think a "luxury tax" similar to NBA is a good idea. Lets those who want to spend, spend.

Then distribute the said income from luxury tax to grassroots or youth development programs etc.

Similar thing is happening with NBL, salary cap is too low and the better players are now heading to China, Europe etc.

Different with NRL and AFL as there is no international market/competition.

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Makes sense.
My thoughts of dropping the cap, open the comp up and smoke out the ogarlords to either invest or not.
If not pull their license off - the first domino to reduce franchise agreements bit by bit.

HappyGuus said:

Not saying I disagree. But it's one thing to remove or increase the cap, it's another for any Oz club to actually afford to pay more. All seems a bit pointless at the moment as they're broke.

The league as a whole is probably only averaging one marquee in recent seasons when they've allowed for 26. Until the clubs actually have money AND want to spend it, the cap is practically ineffectual. Losing our better players to overseas is a fact of life right now, we can't afford to keep them here.

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HG, yes you make good points re the APL/AL.
Agree I've gone ahead of myself, let that level run its course for all I care compared to others either live or die by its sword for it will never come to party with a Pro2 unless the cards are stacked in their favour but in the end that model can't work with a open playing field regardless.

Championship is the games big picture focus to work on by the FA/Feds the NPL Clubs down.
Like the Pro fellas its about getting the $$$ to run along season to season and investment.
Importantly nothing like the $$'s a Franchise needs up front and the costs of over sized stads etcetc Pro2 can run at less and they have done the sums and all the last number of years approving the founding 8 and hopefully working as its reported on more.
This is our only hope for the future.