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Australian politics.

melbcityguy said:
It's a bit like football Sack both managers and bring someone new in
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Sadly it wont fix a thing mate... This is a generations old justification of the basic right to exist as a nation or not.

One side want the land they where promised by their God and are willing to do whatever unspeakable horrible crimes they can get away with to take over, the other side doesn't believe they should even exist as human beings and are willing to commit all manner of unspeakable monstrosities to make sure they wipe them off the face of the Earth. ... That little patch of sand will be fought over until the sun cools and the planets die....
 
JS96 said:
The issue I take with the greens and juice media is their smugness and the fact they never look inward. That would help them. Across the world they're such a filthy lot with a cut throat approach to anyone who disagrees with them. They've strayed way to radical.
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Are you serious? Have you met the LNP and Labor parties? The LNP have blamed everyone and everything for their last two election defeats, and Labor have never once acknowledged anyone else but themselves. In the current climate of the world, we need some to be a bit radical because this half-arse do things timidly has gotten America Trump, and us Australians on half baked policies. Do you know how insanely wealthy this country is with resources, and yet we give it away for basically free.
JS96 said:
Was it on here or elsewhere which is interesting to note that Murdoch's media is far less consumed by the majority of voting demographic these days. This is certainly an opportunity for good coverage to be made. It must be balanced however. I'm tired of reading something and seeing the agenda in the first sentence.
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I would definitely counter that though as Murdoch media is synonymous. People think they are not viewing and listening to Murdoch media, but it is definitely high up.
JS96 said:
The loss of young voters is inevitable as they age because they enter the property market and get better jobs and the threat or risk of higher taxation to pay for it. I wish corporations were taxed more but it's a pipe dream. They'll find ways of getting around it.
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It really is not a pipe dream because there are other countries that do it and are successful at it. Why do we let corporations get away with so much. Who cares if a mining company threatens to leave. They can't take the ground with them. Let the government create a mining company and get the funds to go straight back into the coffers to be used for the people.
JS96 said:
Change is definitely needed but not in this way of messing everything up the having no idea how to get out of it while everyone suffers and pays for it in the meantime. The Greens operate in principly the same way worldwide. They charged in with German carbon and energy taxes and you had business leaders and everyone else in the know pulling out their hair as it put a massive strain of business and the economy. Economic minister Habeck with a fucking philosophy degree said 'the companies haven't gone out of business, they've just ceased operations.'
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Again, conflating two different countries without realising it's not the same. The narrative that the Greens have no idea has been disproven countless times, but I guess the narrative is much easier to fit and maintain than to actually accept that Labor and LNP are the problem. The Greens in Australia have provided clear policies and costings. Everyone always asks how they are going to pay for it, and they provide fully fledged costings months and years in advance of elections. LNP gave their costings 2 days out and it showed worse economic management. Inflation is not the fault of the Greens because it seems implied in this post. I haven't paid for electricity in over a year because of the energy rebate we got from the tax excise on mining companies. That was a Greens policy adopted by Labor.

Vote Labor if you want, but don't be disingenuous to the Greens because of an experience once in a totally different country, or because the media creates a narrative about them that is false.
 
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melbcityguy said:
Unfortunately I don't agree I have seen many instances where it's not true. The greens are basically a extreme left version of one nation
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My bad. I didn't realise you could read our minds.

The Greens are nothing similar to one nation
 
melbcityguy said:
Guess we'll agree to disagree
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Usually I'm not one for confrontation, but on this one I think it's important that you don't write a false narrative for other people.

The movement is very clear. It is anti-zionism, not Jews. There are many Jews who are pro-palestine and they do so against Zionism.

Continuing rhetoric similar to yours is one that only allows the perpetuations that the right feed off of to continue. There may be the odd individual who say "anti-jew", but this has stemmed from a lack of education and a concerted effort by the Zionist movement to ensure the lines are blurred so that it distracts from the actual issues, and further influence they have in political governments across the globe.
 
zimbos05 said:
Usually I'm not one for confrontation, but on this one I think it's important that you don't write a false narrative for other people.

The movement is very clear. It is anti-zionism, not Jews. There are many Jews who are pro-palestine and they do so against Zionism.

Continuing rhetoric similar to yours is one that only allows the perpetuations that the right feed off of to continue. There may be the odd individual who say "anti-jew", but this has stemmed from a lack of education and a concerted effort by the Zionist movement to ensure the lines are blurred so that it distracts from the actual issues, and further influence they have in political governments across the globe.
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Im not trying to be contrarian and agree with you zimbos, a small point however in that 99% of Zionists however ARE indeed Jews... :P
 
Monoethnic Social Club said:
Im not trying to be contrarian and agree with you zimbos, a small point however in that 99% of Zionists however ARE indeed Jews... :P
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Yes, but not all Zionist are Jews. Much like not all Christians are Nazis.

You can hate Zionism, whilst still respecting the Jewish aspect of that person. It is Zionism that dictates Israeli policy, not Judaism.
 
zimbos05 said:
Yes, but not all Zionist are Jews. Much like not all Christians are Nazis.

You can hate Zionism, whilst still respecting the Jewish aspect of that person. It is Zionism that dictates Israeli policy, not Judaism.
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Sorry but I disagree... MOST Zionists I have ever heard of are Jews (What other group would you consider Zionist?) ..... however NOT all Jews are Zionists, that much is abundantly obvious...
 
So did the greens condemn
zimbos05 said:
Usually I'm not one for confrontation, but on this one I think it's important that you don't write a false narrative for other people.

The movement is very clear. It is anti-zionism, not Jews. There are many Jews who are pro-palestine and they do so against Zionism.

Continuing rhetoric similar to yours is one that only allows the perpetuations that the right feed off of to continue. There may be the odd individual who say "anti-jew", but this has stemmed from a lack of education and a concerted effort by the Zionist movement to ensure the lines are blurred so that it distracts from the actual issues, and further influence they have in political governments across the globe.
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So what have the greens done for the Jewish community and have they condemn anti semitism?
 
Decentric said:
In Australia there is a feeling amongst activists that Islamaphobia is more prevalent and tolerated more than anti-Semitism, Grazor.
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I hope we are close enough mates that I can venture with some pretty blunt statements in my response

It is common for communities that have a problem with bigotry against a group to underestimate the amount of bigotry a group faces and underestimating antisemitism is itself evidence that left wing activist circles have become antisemitic

Australian police data is unfortunately more fragmented than the uk and the usa, but we can look at ECAJ and the islamaphobia register to estimate hate crime incidents before and after october 7 and it follows similar trends in the anglo sphere.

Pre Oct 7 there were 0.34 antisemitic incidents per 1000 people per month. After oct 7 this rose to 1.56
This compares to 0.012 islamaphobic incidents per 1000 people per month pre oct7 which has jumped to 0.091.
Self reporting surveys have similar numbers for islamaphobic incidents compared to higher numbers for antisemetic incidents indicating that police are probably underestimating this issue. Even if you take raw numbers not adjusted for population there are significantly more anti-semitic hate crimes than islamaphobic

We have more detailed data from other anglosphere countries and they show similar jumps after oct 7 as well as giving breakdowns in motivations. Before oct 7, 60% of anti-religious hate crimes in the usa were anti semitic and 3/4ths of that was right wing antisemitic. After oct 7 it has been a surge in left wing antisemitism driving the numbers.

It is simply not plausible that islamophobia is more prevalent and tolerated than antisemitism though in any case both are pathologies that need to be fixed. Left wingers dominate journalism, non-profits, academia and major political parties and there is strong institutional support for left wing anti semitism. Elitist bigotry is, in my view, much more alarming than grass roots bigotry since it has more opportunity to cause damage (much like the election of Trump has given institutional support for elitist right wing bigotry)

"It has been the case that some Jewish organisations have more clout and been able to exert pressure on Labor MPs to repudiate the attacks against Jews more than attacks on Islam."

I don't think labour mps are having their strings pulled by Jewish puppet masters and that is an antisemitic trope

"As I've stated in the previous post it is important to differentiate between Jews and the Israeli Netanyahu government.

One progressive Aus Jewish group, (it might be the Aus Jewery Council, not sure though?) is concerned about the genocide in Gaza and Israel's aggressive role. They want the Aus Labor govt to do more to support Palestinians."

The accusation of genocide is blood libel in my view and an antisemitic trope (holocaust inversion). It is also common for bigoted groups to tokenize members of a minority. Think for example Candace Owens as the voice of Black people in American right wing circles. A bigoted group can reinforce their bigoted echo chamber by having a rare member of a minority agree with them. Jews in general skew left but the antizionist Jews that can still socially survive in left wing dominated spaces are as tokenized as Candace Owens. In the USA roughly 80% of Jews feel a connection to Israel and believe Israel should exist as a distinctly Jewish state. Globally you are looking at 90% of Jews with the same views (half of Jews live in Israel). 72% of American Jews also say Israel makes them feel proud to feel Jewish. Pew research shows 89% of American Jews support the war of Israel on Gaza and 62% found Israel's conduct in conducting the war acceptable. Shoen Cooperman research found 81% support Israel continuing their ground operation. Support for a cease fire has grown though to around 50%. That doesn't mean that should be our views, but it does mean that you should be cautious about tokenization of Jewish voices.

"As I've said before there are Jews in Labor Friends Of Palestine in this state, and Jews who are members of Friends of Palestine and Aus Palestine Advocacy Network. They feel the Israeli govt is doing to Gazans, what Hitler did to them in WW 2."

]Historically, antisemitism has often spread through blood libel. Often, whatever is most unvirtuous in a society is put on the Jews as a scapegoat. In left wing circles the worst things are nazism, apartheid, white supremecy and colonialism and these are the accusations leveled at the one Jewish majority state in the world through wild exaggeration. Holocaust inversion is an example of a common blood libel trope. This doesn't mean Israel has been innocent, no country has, or that there aren't legitimate grievances, but it becomes blood libel when we take the worst things in western history and scape goat the Jews.

"At the same time, the original attacks by Hamas against Israeli citizens on October 7th and taking hostages, was abhorrent. It took me some 5 months before I became active ( like many others) in the Palestinian support groups, because of the original Hamas wrongdoing."

I'm obviously grateful for your activism in helping a labour victory which was a brilliant night. However, I'm concerned you have gotten yourself into an epistemic bubble here which has huge blind spots about antisemitism (including some of what I see as casual antisemitism in your post!) Hope once all the Champagne is justifiably drunk after your hard work you give serious thought to this issue
 
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