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r/Aleague

grazorblade said:
some galaxy brain discussion going on here

Click to expand...


~An open letter to r/a-leagues / why some redditoid's need to shtoom~

please read the whole thing, even if it does sound like the ramblings of a mad man

I don't understand the AFL / NRL (to a lesser extent) argument of "well they don't have pro rel ..." AND? Is there a culture of pro rel in Rugby or AFL such a non argument.

We need to stop comparing ourselves with the US market, we have a similar ish soccer system currently and historically but they have greater opportunities to invest in the game then we do.

Financial and geographical worries I understand they could be fixed (80-90%) but the infrastructure and mechanism of the league is completely fucked, and nothing is being done to build upon and change system put into place 20 years ago.

Of course South is mentioned, A-League fans HATE us (can't think why ... mike lol). I think a split conferences league is a good idea, makes the final series and FFA cup more 'credible', but ... but ... VIC and NSW team dominance because every other league's winners aren't from the biggest couple of cities?

Crowed violence is such a mute point now, yes it happened in the NSL but it happens in the A-League. Classic Sydney United fans thing gets brought up, yes Nazi's are bad but why isn't there the same energy for the Western United fans displaying a flag of an apartheid state? Do they get the clear to be racist because the victims of that were Black Africans and not White Europeans???

Not defending the NPL (because it is FUCKING horrible) but don't speak on it if you don't go / watch / aren't involved with the game.

Why didn't the NSL have relegation (WHO GIVES A SHIT!), its a now defunct semi-pro league again this was some how South's fault (in some peoples eyes).

If a A-League franchise is not able to survive after getting relegated it is not fit for business and thus unsustainable, ffs NQ Fury was able to operate many seasons after dropping out of the A-League and they were complete shite!

Promotion and relegation are a basic requirement for any national league's system.

Once again u/Meapa (a moderator) of the sub ADDS NOTHING TO THE CONVOCATION OF ANY SUBSTANCE WHAT SO EVER, WHY ARE PPL LIKE THIS RUNNING THE DISCUSSION SPACES ABOUT AUSTRALIAN SOCCER IF THEY CANT STRING 2 FUCKING STANCES TOGETHER.

Why do A-League try hards, think that WE (Non A-League fans) think that adding pro / rel is going to fix Australian soccer. New flash buddy it won't, but it is a basic requirement and is just a tiny piece to how this whole shit show needs to be fixed.

The A-League is built on a spaghetti like infrastructure, for every problem it tries to address another pops up and so on and so fourth. Due to the Suits creating a league system that relies on gimmicks, franchise expansion, marquee players it has created a unsustainable footballing environment. Time and time again the league has attempted to address Australian football shortcomings but has in turn created more problems. By getting rid of 90% of the established teams in '05 they fractured the fan base (a schism if you will) I understand we needed a professional league, but was this really the way to go about it? Yes crowed violence, but imagine if they did this in England when they had even WORSE crowed violence, kicking out the ethnics wasn't the solution. They tried marquee players initially Romario, Fowler, Collymore (rejected) but they hit it big with Del Piero and Heskey who were arriving from top tier clubs did it work in the short run YES, have they tried to replicate it to little success YES but Maccarone, Bobo, and Juan Mata don't really hit the same do they. I remember early 10's the A-League being quite pricy, this would have stopped years of potential fans going, so they made it cheaper if not FREE on some occasions are crowds still crap? Yup.... It is incredibly hard to attracts proper ownership and prospect on investment when there is no room for potential growth and salary caps. Why would anyone wan't to put money into a 2nd tier team? They are locked out of participating in the A-League, and larger AFC comps, we won't see people investing in bottom lower tier clubs because there is 0 growth opportunity outside of a small community, the ceiling is incredibly low. A-League owners want to protect their investment by not having relegation because they could actually loose lots of cash if their clubs get relegated due to the complete disjoint between the leagues. If City football group don't even max out their salary cap can we actually expect to be competitive with the rest of Asia or are we just going to fall behind. They tried to expand and create new teams, who gives a fuck about Western United and MacArthur???

The league is a complete mess and the only way to fix it is a complete restructuring from top to bottom.
 
southoftheyarra said:
I don't understand the AFL / NRL (to a lesser extent) argument of "well they don't have pro rel ..." AND? Is there a culture of pro rel in Rugby or AFL such a non argument.
Click to expand...

Indeed, promotion and relegation might get canned in the english super league (rugby league) despite being in the uk. So its not the travel distances that matter but the differences between the sports. Its a pretty complicated reason why and probably worth an article of its own

We need to stop comparing ourselves with the US market, we have a similar ish soccer system currently and historically but they have greater opportunities to invest in the game then we do.

Canada is probably our most similar country. So if they don't have p&r that is the strongest point against p&r. Having said that I've convinced myself that the reasons both don't are wrong. TLDR summary is that p&r's benefits are like compound interest, they accumlate and grow over time, whereas the cost is constant. So p&r for Australia is like a super annuation fund with a large minimum payment. Takes longer in Australia for the cost to be worth it and would require vision , but still worth it given enough time

Financial and geographical worries I understand they could be fixed (80-90%) but the infrastructure and mechanism of the league is completely fucked, and nothing is being done to build upon and change system put into place 20 years ago.

the heavy dose of hopium I take is the fact that the league looks sustainable enough to clunk along but is struggling could make p&r attractive if a h&a nst gets up. Probably wildly optimistic, but compare to the usa where their 2nd tier is miles behind the first so p&r is unattractive

Of course South is mentioned, A-League fans HATE us (can't think why ... mike lol). I think a split conferences league is a good idea, makes the final series and FFA cup more 'credible', but ... but ... VIC and NSW team dominance because every other league's winners aren't from the biggest couple of cities?

Here is one a league fan that doesn't hate souths haha

Crowed violence is such a mute point now, yes it happened in the NSL but it happens in the A-League. Classic Sydney United fans thing gets brought up, yes Nazi's are bad but why isn't there the same energy for the Western United fans displaying a flag of an apartheid state? Do they get the clear to be racist because the victims of that were Black Africans and not White Europeans???

Weird this gets brought up post bucket man haha.

Why didn't the NSL have relegation (WHO GIVES A SHIT!), its a now defunct semi-pro league again this was some how South's fault (in some peoples eyes).

I wonder if this gets lost in the vague recollection of history. But the league became unsustainable 12 years after relegation got scrapped but was evidently sustainable for the first 16 years with an ad hoc p&r system

If a A-League franchise is not able to survive after getting relegated it is not fit for business and thus unsustainable, ffs NQ Fury was able to operate many seasons after dropping out of the A-League and they were complete shite!

If p&r is ever implemented here, I imagine, despite fan protests, some sort of strange hybrid system for a period of time. Like a league clubs not being relegated below the nst for the first 10 years or something.


Once again u/Meapa (a moderator) of the sub ADDS NOTHING TO THE CONVOCATION OF ANY SUBSTANCE WHAT SO EVER, WHY ARE PPL LIKE THIS
RUNNING THE DISCUSSION SPACES ABOUT AUSTRALIAN SOCCER IF THEY CANT STRING 2 FUCKING STANCES TOGETHER.

It does become an echo chamber there
 
grazorblade said:
Indeed, promotion and relegation might get canned in the english super league (rugby league) despite being in the uk. So its not the travel distances that matter but the differences between the sports. Its a pretty complicated reason why and probably worth an article of its own

We need to stop comparing ourselves with the US market, we have a similar ish soccer system currently and historically but they have greater opportunities to invest in the game then we do.

Canada is probably our most similar country. So if they don't have p&r that is the strongest point against p&r. Having said that I've convinced myself that the reasons both don't are wrong. TLDR summary is that p&r's benefits are like compound interest, they accumlate and grow over time, whereas the cost is constant. So p&r for Australia is like a super annuation fund with a large minimum payment. Takes longer in Australia for the cost to be worth it and would require vision , but still worth it given enough time

Financial and geographical worries I understand they could be fixed (80-90%) but the infrastructure and mechanism of the league is completely fucked, and nothing is being done to build upon and change system put into place 20 years ago.

the heavy dose of hopium I take is the fact that the league looks sustainable enough to clunk along but is struggling could make p&r attractive if a h&a nst gets up. Probably wildly optimistic, but compare to the usa where their 2nd tier is miles behind the first so p&r is unattractive

Of course South is mentioned, A-League fans HATE us (can't think why ... mike lol). I think a split conferences league is a good idea, makes the final series and FFA cup more 'credible', but ... but ... VIC and NSW team dominance because every other league's winners aren't from the biggest couple of cities?

Here is one a league fan that doesn't hate souths haha

Crowed violence is such a mute point now, yes it happened in the NSL but it happens in the A-League. Classic Sydney United fans thing gets brought up, yes Nazi's are bad but why isn't there the same energy for the Western United fans displaying a flag of an apartheid state? Do they get the clear to be racist because the victims of that were Black Africans and not White Europeans???

Weird this gets brought up post bucket man haha.

Why didn't the NSL have relegation (WHO GIVES A SHIT!), its a now defunct semi-pro league again this was some how South's fault (in some peoples eyes).

I wonder if this gets lost in the vague recollection of history. But the league became unsustainable 12 years after relegation got scrapped but was evidently sustainable for the first 16 years with an ad hoc p&r system

If a A-League franchise is not able to survive after getting relegated it is not fit for business and thus unsustainable, ffs NQ Fury was able to operate many seasons after dropping out of the A-League and they were complete shite!

If p&r is ever implemented here, I imagine, despite fan protests, some sort of strange hybrid system for a period of time. Like a league clubs not being relegated below the nst for the first 10 years or something.


Once again u/Meapa (a moderator) of the sub ADDS NOTHING TO THE CONVOCATION OF ANY SUBSTANCE WHAT SO EVER, WHY ARE PPL LIKE THIS
RUNNING THE DISCUSSION SPACES ABOUT AUSTRALIAN SOCCER IF THEY CANT STRING 2 FUCKING STANCES TOGETHER.

It does become an echo chamber there
Click to expand...
Thank your for engaging in proper footballing discussion Grazor.
 
The rumours were and initially that with the Home and Away 2nd div the relegation was going to be held off for 3 seasons I think? Maybe enough time to get their books into order.

Canada Interesting... They only re-started / re made their league circa covid? I don't really know that much about it, I the things we have in common with USA historical football 'whatever' (in my mind) are ethnic teams, dissolution of a current league, and marquee players and no pro rel. I would think that Canada is similar so it makes sense that you would draw our comparison to theirs are we are both small nation, so your very right there.
 
southoftheyarra said:
The rumours were and initially that with the Home and Away 2nd div the relegation was going to be held off for 3 seasons I think? Maybe enough time to get their books into order.

Canada Interesting... They only re-started / re made their league circa covid? I don't really know that much about it, I the things we have in common with USA historical football 'whatever' (in my mind) are ethnic teams, dissolution of a current league, and marquee players and no pro rel. I would think that Canada is similar so it makes sense that you would draw our comparison to theirs are we are both small nation, so your very right there.
Click to expand...
yeah small spread out nations with other strong codes
 
melbcityguy said:
Dude c'mon the western united thing was like five people there were 100s of Sydney united fans singing Za Dom Spremni and they have history with it and their club doesn't do anything about it fuck Sydney united
Click to expand...
cause you dont know the fucken history, and dont try to teach it.

i've stated the origins of ZDS before, but you dumb lefties only go back to history starting from WW2.
 
Last edited:
southoftheyarra said:
The rumours were and initially that with the Home and Away 2nd div the relegation was going to be held off for 3 seasons I think? Maybe enough time to get their books into order.

Canada Interesting... They only re-started / re made their league circa covid? I don't really know that much about it, I the things we have in common with USA historical football 'whatever' (in my mind) are ethnic teams, dissolution of a current league, and marquee players and no pro rel. I would think that Canada is similar so it makes sense that you would draw our comparison to theirs are we are both small nation, so your very right there.
Click to expand...
Is very much similar to the A-League + MLS beginnings:

Started in 2019 (ran April through October that season)
8 foundation teams (only 1 was not a 'start-up' team)
1 has been dissolved (the only non 'start-up' team) and been replaced in another city
All teams in separate cities right across the country
No P/R
Competes in the 'Canadian Championship' (nationwide cup competition), and are given the same benefits as the 3 MLS sides that compete in the tournament (16 team knockout competition, 5 other teams qualify, a la NPL sides in the Australia Cup)
 
southoftheyarra said:
~An open letter to r/a-leagues / why some redditoid's need to shtoom~

please read the whole thing, even if it does sound like the ramblings of a mad man

I don't understand the AFL / NRL (to a lesser extent) argument of "well they don't have pro rel ..." AND? Is there a culture of pro rel in Rugby or AFL such a non argument.

We need to stop comparing ourselves with the US market, we have a similar ish soccer system currently and historically but they have greater opportunities to invest in the game then we do.

Financial and geographical worries I understand they could be fixed (80-90%) but the infrastructure and mechanism of the league is completely fucked, and nothing is being done to build upon and change system put into place 20 years ago.

Of course South is mentioned, A-League fans HATE us (can't think why ... mike lol). I think a split conferences league is a good idea, makes the final series and FFA cup more 'credible', but ... but ... VIC and NSW team dominance because every other league's winners aren't from the biggest couple of cities?

Crowed violence is such a mute point now, yes it happened in the NSL but it happens in the A-League. Classic Sydney United fans thing gets brought up, yes Nazi's are bad but why isn't there the same energy for the Western United fans displaying a flag of an apartheid state? Do they get the clear to be racist because the victims of that were Black Africans and not White Europeans???

Not defending the NPL (because it is FUCKING horrible) but don't speak on it if you don't go / watch / aren't involved with the game.

Why didn't the NSL have relegation (WHO GIVES A SHIT!), its a now defunct semi-pro league again this was some how South's fault (in some peoples eyes).

If a A-League franchise is not able to survive after getting relegated it is not fit for business and thus unsustainable, ffs NQ Fury was able to operate many seasons after dropping out of the A-League and they were complete shite!

Promotion and relegation are a basic requirement for any national league's system.

Once again u/Meapa (a moderator) of the sub ADDS NOTHING TO THE CONVOCATION OF ANY SUBSTANCE WHAT SO EVER, WHY ARE PPL LIKE THIS RUNNING THE DISCUSSION SPACES ABOUT AUSTRALIAN SOCCER IF THEY CANT STRING 2 FUCKING STANCES TOGETHER.

Why do A-League try hards, think that WE (Non A-League fans) think that adding pro / rel is going to fix Australian soccer. New flash buddy it won't, but it is a basic requirement and is just a tiny piece to how this whole shit show needs to be fixed.

The A-League is built on a spaghetti like infrastructure, for every problem it tries to address another pops up and so on and so fourth. Due to the Suits creating a league system that relies on gimmicks, franchise expansion, marquee players it has created a unsustainable footballing environment. Time and time again the league has attempted to address Australian football shortcomings but has in turn created more problems. By getting rid of 90% of the established teams in '05 they fractured the fan base (a schism if you will) I understand we needed a professional league, but was this really the way to go about it? Yes crowed violence, but imagine if they did this in England when they had even WORSE crowed violence, kicking out the ethnics wasn't the solution. They tried marquee players initially Romario, Fowler, Collymore (rejected) but they hit it big with Del Piero and Heskey who were arriving from top tier clubs did it work in the short run YES, have they tried to replicate it to little success YES but Maccarone, Bobo, and Juan Mata don't really hit the same do they. I remember early 10's the A-League being quite pricy, this would have stopped years of potential fans going, so they made it cheaper if not FREE on some occasions are crowds still crap? Yup.... It is incredibly hard to attracts proper ownership and prospect on investment when there is no room for potential growth and salary caps. Why would anyone wan't to put money into a 2nd tier team? They are locked out of participating in the A-League, and larger AFC comps, we won't see people investing in bottom lower tier clubs because there is 0 growth opportunity outside of a small community, the ceiling is incredibly low. A-League owners want to protect their investment by not having relegation because they could actually loose lots of cash if their clubs get relegated due to the complete disjoint between the leagues. If City football group don't even max out their salary cap can we actually expect to be competitive with the rest of Asia or are we just going to fall behind. They tried to expand and create new teams, who gives a fuck about Western United and MacArthur???

The league is a complete mess and the only way to fix it is a complete restructuring from top to bottom.
Click to expand...
Really well said mate. The one "argument" against pro/rel by these brains I can never understand is they claim that 20 year old Aleague franchises will simply shrivel up and die if they are relegated to a semi professional second division yet in the very same breath bemoan the fact that current clubs in the very same situation can't consistently get crowds to attend?

2000 at an Aleague match in Tarneit is "developing football in a growth corridor" but 2000 at an NPL match is somehow (see these bloody wogs can't even turn up to watch their own bloody anti-Australian teams anymore??? The mental gymnastics really is breathtaking.
 
Monoethnic Social Club said:
Really well said mate. The one "argument" against pro/rel by these brains I can never understand is they claim that 20 year old Aleague franchises will simply shrivel up and die if they are relegated to a semi professional second division yet in the very same breath bemoan the fact that current clubs in the very same situation can't consistently get crowds to attend?

2000 at an Aleague match in Tarneit is "developing football in a growth corridor" but 2000 at an NPL match is somehow (see these bloody wogs can't even turn up to watch their own bloody anti-Australian teams anymore??? The mental gymnastics really is breathtaking.
Click to expand...
It only makes sense (in relation to A-League teams dying), if majority of the supporter base is following the team because its professional / in a first division. It says more about Australian football fans then the team itself.

I love the whole growth corridor angle for Western United, because there wasn't already a plethora of NPL VIC teams out that way? I wonder if any of the Western United supporter base actually followed NPL VIC teams...
 
Having a look at the new western Melbourne region on google maps. I'm not seeing pitches being built. Dozens of new ovals though... like they need more. I even spotted some hockey and baseball fields. Where are the pitches?
 
southoftheyarra said:
It only makes sense (in relation to A-League teams dying), if majority of the supporter base is following the team because its professional / in a first division. It says more about Australian football fans then the team itself.

I love the whole growth corridor angle for Western United, because there wasn't already a plethora of NPL VIC teams out that way? I wonder if any of the Western United supporter base actually followed NPL VIC teams...
Click to expand...
Its a bullshit argument.... ALL of the old NSL clubs lost fans when they too ceased playing in the first division... Look at South crowds these days compared to 20 years ago .... Or go to Somers Street on a rainy Friday.

The Aleague have had 20 years to attract committed rusted on fans, if they cant survive a drop to state league hell and losing 75% of their fanbase overnight like the old NSL clubs have done then I guess.... its true they arent really football clubs are they?
 
HappyGuus said:
Having a look at the new western Melbourne region on google maps. I'm not seeing pitches being built. Dozens of new ovals though... like they need more. I even spotted some hockey and baseball fields. Where are the pitches?
Click to expand...
Ovals getting some serious use in Summer .. Anecdotally dozens of new cricket clubs are springing up over in the west every week.
 
Monoethnic Social Club said:
Its a bullshit argument.... ALL of the old NSL clubs lost fans when they too ceased playing in the first division... Look at South crowds these days compared to 20 years ago .... Or go to Somers Street on a rainy Friday.

The Aleague have had 20 years to attract committed rusted on fans, if they cant survive a drop to state league hell and losing 75% of their fanbase overnight like the old NSL clubs have done then I guess.... its true they arent really football clubs are they?
Click to expand...
Fuck you recon it was 75%, I wasn't around for it so you have to fill me in with those years.
 
southoftheyarra said:
Fuck you recon it was 75%, I wasn't around for it so you have to fill me in with those years.
Click to expand...
Almost overnight...... 2004 was a shitty season for crowds anyway but South, for example would get around 10k for most decent fixtures at Bob Jane ... After the "dead" 2005 and the rebirth of State League Soccer VPL first match at Lakeside against Bergers (mind you it had been a while since a Greek derby had been played at that stage) the crowd was awesome .... 11k from memory and I remember thinking "eh maybe state league wont be that bad" .... by the end of the season 4k was a good crowd.... 20 years later and we are still here... still mad, still alive ...
 
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