The Finance/ Business/ Money Thread

[melbcityguy]

So there is a non football related section here as well?

Why bother? We are doomed as a species.

We have either passed the point of no return, or, if we have not, we will not do anything substantial about the environment before its too late.

Question is would you rather be doomed as a species or have promotion relegation

 

[Monoethnic Social Club]

Question is would you rather be doomed as a species or have promotion relegation

Survival of the species(or not) is the ultimate form of pro/rel

 

[Muz]

true 2 wrongs don't make a right but that other crowd are not leading types at the same time.
Enviromentalists is a great cause to stand behind but politics and policy isn't their game but fell into it.
Maybe they should stand on their own then we'll see how in front they are or not.

Re the property cap gains scenario..
The biggest issue is/has been the OS investor from 20+yrs back.
I recall being at auctions that they'd be bidding through brokers/agents 2/3/500k more than average market price I viewed was worth, still carries on today.
Fair enough being out bid but at those levels its been OTT for years,
They are the main culprit that started the rise of over inflated house prices and to this day more than locals and their portfolios who in the end help their kids in the current climate most case's due to this outcome.
Why I lol'd at that pussy foreign ban till '27.
Why be light footed which is typical of our Gov today, put the foot down forever on local house foreign investment and watch the market subside in time to reasonable levels reachable for our own.
Oh we don't want to offend our neighbours but we don't have the same reciprocal rights.
Donkeys this country is, fight for our land rights, produce and Exports but people carry on about small minded local issues ffs.

Its not getting ridiculously out of control Muz it is.
Labour Lib are both mugs for decades and no Independant/Teal/green nor minority Gov is any hope for the better as well.
The more mix the more resistance, more debating, more royal commisions, you want more red tape in this most red taped country on the planet ?!
Place gone to the weeds due to pathetic weak governance for decades.
You cannot please everybody, its impossible.
Christ I'm going to hate having posted this.

Will have to agree to disagree. (Your text bolded.)

With regards to capital gains taxes, properties and overseas investors. Foreign investors are a tiny proportion of residential purchases.

Would suggest you look at when Howard introduced the capital gains tax discount. That turbocharged housing as an investment. Howard is directly responsible for housing becoming a more attractive investment vehicle.

If you're interested read this.

House prices were already spiralling in 2004: Here’s what Howard and Costello did about it

In 2004, house prices in every capital city were surging to unaffordable levels. The Howard cabinet considered its options – and did nothing.

www.smh.com.au

If it's paywalled then stick it in here. www.12ft.io

Here's a choice extract.


The 1999 capital gains tax change had come from a business taxation review that argued it would encourage investors to sink money into the Australian sharemarket.

Instead, it was already apparent by 2004 that property investors were using the concession.
At the time, the Reserve Bank raised concerns about the combined impact of negative gearing and the capital gains tax concession.

The Productivity Commission noted negative gearing and the concession had “combined to magnify the attractiveness of investing in residential property during the recent upswing in house prices, thereby adding to price pressures”.

“Indeed … these changes have almost certainly contributed to the surge in investment in rental housing in the past few years,” it noted.

This aspect of the commission’s 300-page report, which said a review should specifically examine the concession and negative gearing, was not presented to the cabinet.

A short submission from the Treasury argued against the commission’s key findings on the capital gains tax concession, noting prices had climbed sharply in a range of other nations over recent years.

Newly declassified documents reveal government inaction on housing and cost of living woes

The government failed to adequately address concerns around supermarket conduct and pressure for first home buyers two decades ago, newly released cabinet papers reveal.

www.sbs.com.au

 

[Muz]

They are the main culprit that started the rise of over inflated house prices and to this day more than locals and their portfolios who in the end help their

Foreign residents barred from buying existing homes for two years

The new policy will mean people living temporarily in Australia, either for work or study, will be banned from purchasing existing houses until at least 2027.

www.afr.com

One house is too many but foreign investors only purchased 5360 homes in 2022/2023. That's in the entirety of Australia. Less than 1% of all purchases that year. (In other words. Sweet fuck all.)

So it's not what Sky News is telling us at all. It's not dirty, filthy foreigners and the commos selling our birthright out from under us. It's home grown investors using housing as an investment vehicle.

https://foreigninvestment.gov.au/sites/foreigninvestment.gov.au/files/2024-06/residential-insights-report-2022-23.pdf

 

[LFC]

your missing the point.
and my 20+yr mention is on the money and was on the floor watching it occur.
I know people in RE here in Syd, BS, foreign investors maybe small % today and possibly back then no matter the link you chase up will always vary whats reported but long before OS investors greatly set the tone/high pricing into motions......
What needs to be accpeted what was good once long ago times change incl global economies.
You can find similar hindsight articles going back decade to decade on cost of living, demands, yaddayadda, your dream of minor gov Indys/purple hair people/tree huggers won't change the course of the global economy and population growth worse local and Fed Gov.
Minnows and splitting voters makes for many many more tadpoles and countless cane toads that end up as pests.

 

[Muz]

your missing the point.
and my 20+yr mention is on the money and was on the floor watching it occur.
I know people in RE here in Syd, BS, foreign investors maybe small % today and possibly back then no matter the link you chase up will always vary whats reported but long before OS investors greatly set the tone/high pricing into motions......
What needs to be accpeted what was good once long ago times change incl global economies.
You can find similar hindsight articles going back decade to decade on cost of living, demands, yaddayadda, your dream of minor gov Indys/purple hair people/tree huggers won't change the course of the global economy and population growth worse local and Fed Gov.
Minnows and splitting voters makes for many many more tadpoles and countless cane toads that end up as pests.

Mate I'm not missing the point, I'm disagreeing.

John Howard and Peter Costello introduced a capital gains tax discount and housing as an investment vehicle went through the roof.

Here.



It

 

[LFC]

disgree no prob - don't need the links but I'm also bringing good points to the discussion..
I'm not discounting that period of time decision at the same time how many OS mainlanders for years and years on bought inner city dwellings/house's/apartments for their kids to attend Uni is another good rort be it Syd/Melb/Bris cbd's, under relatives names here.
Theres alot of of hidden paths that graphs don't show.
I also don't begrudge a fellow Aussie working their butts off and have assets and provided more for their fam compared to what they had in the past and their parents gen before.
I also have quoted what was good business once may not apply decades on, facts of life.
Jumping up and down and voting for noisy minorities won't save whats ahead, it is doom and gloom (cost of living won't go back to years ago its not just about property) and you won't see things go back in time unless there's a utter global implosion.
I had hope Orange man would trigger that better but not yet haha

 

[Keeper66]

true 2 wrongs don't make a right but that other crowd are not leading types at the same time.
Enviromentalists is a great cause to stand behind but politics and policy isn't their game but fell into it.
Maybe they should stand on their own then we'll see how in front they are or not.

Re the property cap gains scenario..
The biggest issue is/has been the OS investor from 20+yrs back.
I recall being at auctions that they'd be bidding through brokers/agents 2/3/500k more than average market price I viewed was worth, still carries on today.
Fair enough being out bid but at those levels its been OTT for years,
They are the main culprit that started the rise of over inflated house prices and to this day more than locals and their portfolios who in the end help their kids in the current climate most case's due to this outcome.
Why I lol'd at that pussy foreign ban till '27.
Why be light footed which is typical of our Gov today, put the foot down forever on local house foreign investment and watch the market subside in time to reasonable levels reachable for our own.
Oh we don't want to offend our neighbours but we don't have the same reciprocal rights.
Donkeys this country is, fight for our land rights, produce and Exports but people carry on about small minded local issues ffs.

Its not getting ridiculously out of control Muz it is.
Labour Lib are both mugs for decades and no Independant/Teal/green nor minority Gov is any hope for the better as well.
The more mix the more resistance, more debating, more royal commisions, you want more red tape in this most red taped country on the planet ?!
Place gone to the weeds due to pathetic weak governance for decades.
You cannot please everybody, its impossible.
Christ I'm going to hate having posted this.

Fully agree with you on the OS investors driving up the residential property prices. Not only that, in many cases these properties sit empty, or are not used as permanent housing, further exacerbating the problem.

 

[Muz]

Fully agree with you on the OS investors driving up the residential property prices. Not only that, in many cases these properties sit empty, or are not used as permanent housing, further exacerbating the problem.

Can you blokes not read? It's not foreign investors. They make up less than 1% of all residential property purchases. The facts are literally above.

They're a convenient scapegoat pushed by dog-whistling media to demonise 'efniks' and while you're all over there frothing at foreigners, IGNORING THE FACTS STARING YOU RIGHT IN THE FACE, the real issues aren't being addressed which.......

IT'S LOCALS BUYING HOUSES AS AN INVESTMENT VEHICLE. NEAGTIVE GEARING THEM, REDUCING HOUSING STOCK FOR FIRST HOME OWNERS AND BAGGING A 50% DISCOUNT ON PROFITS WHEN THEY SELL THEM.

FFS.

 

[Muz]

disgree no prob - don't need the links but I'm also bringing good points to the discussion..
I'm not discounting that period of time decision at the same time how many OS mainlanders for years and years on bought inner city dwellings/house's/apartments for their kids to attend Uni is another good rort be it Syd/Melb/Bris cbd's, under relatives names here.
Theres alot of of hidden paths that graphs don't show.
I also don't begrudge a fellow Aussie working their butts off and have assets and provided more for their fam compared to what they had in the past and their parents gen before.
I also have quoted what was good business once may not apply decades on, facts of life.
Jumping up and down and voting for noisy minorities won't save whats ahead, it is doom and gloom (cost of living won't go back to years ago its not just about property) and you won't see things go back in time unless there's a utter global implosion.
I had hope Orange man would trigger that better but not yet haha

'you don't need the links' and yet you 'thumbs up' the post below your because it agrees with you despite all evidence to the contrary.

Housing shot up after the capital gains tax discount was introduced. That's an etched in stone fact.

It's there, in facts and figures, as plain as the nose on your face.

 

[JS96]

That's fine but then the commentary about the 'major' parties being shit needs to settle down a bit.

If you keep voting the same mobs in all the time then nothing will ever change so stop whinging.

On negative gearing and capital gains tax reform alone the Greens are miles out in front of the other 2.

Even though capital gains tax reform would directly affect me I think it's a price worth paying. I want my kids to have a chance, like we did, to own a home. It's getting ridiculously out of control for young people.

You're right something has to be done. Parties can change within themselves but that's the tougher job of getting more members to nudge the ideas in a certain direction.

I guess there is where strong leadership with a clear plan comes in and that's rare. There's a lot of stealing of policies to win votes then ignore it when getting in office.

 

[LFC]

Righto your right muz - I must not think out of the square..
Thanks for the post Keeper I know my pov has merit.

 

[Keeper66]

Can you blokes not read? It's not foreign investors. They make up less than 1% of all residential property purchases. The facts are literally above.

They're a convenient scapegoat pushed by dog-whistling media to demonise 'efniks' and while you're all over there frothing at foreigners, IGNORING THE FACTS STARING YOU RIGHT IN THE FACE, the real issues aren't being addressed which.......

IT'S LOCALS BUYING HOUSES AS AN INVESTMENT VEHICLE. NEAGTIVE GEARING THEM, REDUCING HOUSING STOCK FOR FIRST HOME OWNERS AND BAGGING A 50% DISCOUNT ON PROFITS WHEN THEY SELL THEM.

FFS.

It's a discussion/debate mate, no need to shout.

Genuine question here - I accept the fact that residential property purchases by foreign investors is low. Is a foreign investor (as referred to in the stats you quoted) the same as a temporary resident who purchases residential property? After a quick look I can't find any definitive info, but my understanding is that they are two separate identities in terms of residential property sales.

 

[Monoethnic Social Club]

Righto your right muz - I must not think out of the square..
Thanks for the post Keeper I know my pov has merit.

Your post has LOTS of merit mate... Walking back on negative gearing and increasing capital gains tax is the wish of those wanting hard working Australians to park their hard earned dollarydoos in to the russian roulette of stocks and bonds and other people's control...

 

[Keeper66]

Also, I accept that the capital gains tax discount is a factor in increasing house prices, but without doing a detailed analysis of data I suspect that the inability of the country to keep up the supply of housing stock to match population growth is probably a bigger factor. If the housing supply is there, there will be more competition on prices, prices will not rise as high and capital gains will be lower. And lower capital gains will influence investor choices about investing in residential housing.

Governments of all jurisdictions and colours over the past 20+ years are culpable regarding the supply of housing.

Personally, I don't completely understand the lure of investment in residential property. The share markets have better returns in general, have no ongoing maintenance requirement/bad tenants/insurance costs/management fees, etc, are priced on a minute by minute and can be sold in small parcels at a moments notice with very minimal transaction costs, and they also have the benefit of being able to be negatively geared and eligible for the capital gains tax discount.

 

[Monoethnic Social Club]

Also, I accept that the capital gains tax discount is a factor in increasing house prices, but without doing a detailed analysis of data I suspect that the inability of the country to keep up the supply of housing stock to match population growth is probably a bigger factor. If the housing supply is there, there will be more competition on prices, prices will not rise as high and capital gains will be lower. And lower capital gains will influence investor choices about investing in residential housing.

Governments of all jurisdictions and colours over the past 20+ years are culpable regarding the supply of housing.

Personally, I don't completely understand the lure of investment in residential property. The share markets have better returns in general, have no ongoing maintenance requirement/bad tenants/insurance costs/management fees, etc, are priced on a minute by minute and can be sold in small parcels at a moments notice with very minimal transaction costs, and they also have the benefit of being able to be negatively geared and eligible for the capital gains tax discount.

Probably a throwback to more difficult times... "Can't live in a stock portfolio if things go tits up" sort of mentality ... land is land, and will have inherent value as a "thing" even if the actual monetary value diminishes.... Even if the "house" is worth nothing you can knock it down and plant potatoes to feed your family ... at least that was the "lesson" all those years ago...

 

[LFC]

Also, I accept that the capital gains tax discount is a factor in increasing house prices, but without doing a detailed analysis of data I suspect that the inability of the country to keep up the supply of housing stock to match population growth is probably a bigger factor. If the housing supply is there, there will be more competition on prices, prices will not rise as high and capital gains will be lower. And lower capital gains will influence investor choices about investing in residential housing.

Governments of all jurisdictions and colours over the past 20+ years are culpable regarding the supply of housing.

Personally, I don't completely understand the lure of investment in residential property. The share markets have better returns in general, have no ongoing maintenance requirement/bad tenants/insurance costs/management fees, etc, are priced on a minute by minute and can be sold in small parcels at a moments notice with very minimal transaction costs, and they also have the benefit of being able to be negatively geared and eligible for the capital gains tax discount.

bingo bolded as 1 major issue that has contributed not mentioned greatly ! not capital gains alone as pointed out..
Immigration, keep pumping em in but where do they go ?!
Demand has out numbered supply for yonks and yonks, hence another reason of price hikes, then in time material costs go up for obviously not much goes down - I don't expect to pay for the same I paid for a bag of cement 20yrs ago in 2020 let alone 2025.
So many variables have contributed to rise of housing hence my response's but our resident mate goes down the hard one eyed line.

MSC, I'm afraid of thumbing up your post support in fear of being called out hahaha

 

[Keeper66]

Probably a throwback to more difficult times... "Can't live in a stock portfolio if things go tits up" sort of mentality ... land is land, and will have inherent value as a "thing" even if the actual monetary value diminishes.... Even if the "house" is worth nothing you can knock it down and plant potatoes to feed your family ... at least that was the "lesson" all those years ago...

I'm not referring to the ownership of where you live, certainly an investment in your principal place of residence is a very good thing (and capital gains tax free! But unfortunately no negative gearing). The investment in real estate v shares is a debate which will go on for a long time.

 

[Muz]

It's a discussion/debate mate, no need to shout.

Genuine question here - I accept the fact that residential property purchases by foreign investors is low. Is a foreign investor (as referred to in the stats you quoted) the same as a temporary resident who purchases residential property? After a quick look I can't find any definitive info, but my understanding is that they are two separate identities in terms of residential property sales.

Mate, apologies, I got frustrated because despite laying out facts there seems to be no acknowledgement of what is actually the problem.

I don't know about temporary visa holders.

Here's what ChatGPT says. (Take it with a grain of salt as with all things AI.)


Yes, a temporary resident in Australia can purchase property, but there are some conditions and approvals involved.

Here’s how it works:

---

A temporary resident is generally someone in Australia on a valid visa that allows them to stay in the country temporarily, such as:

• Student visa (e.g. Subclass 500)
• Temporary work visa (e.g. Subclass 482)
• Partner visa (e.g. Subclass 820)
• Bridging visa (under certain circumstances)

Temporary residents:

• Can buy one established (existing) dwelling to live in as their principal place of residence, with FIRB approval (see below).
• Can buy new properties, off-the-plan, or vacant land to build new dwellings (these are generally easier to get approved).

They cannot buy existing properties to rent out or as an investment unless it's tied to redevelopment into multiple new dwellings.

​

Yes. The Foreign Investment Review Board (FIRB) must approve the purchase. The application:

• Comes with a fee (based on the property value).
• Usually takes 30 days for a decision (can vary).
• Is likely to be approved if the property will be used as a home and the buyer meets the criteria.

• Upon leaving Australia, you may be required to sell the property unless you become a permanent resident.
• Some states charge extra stamp duty (called "foreign buyer surcharge")—varies by state.

 

[Muz]

A follow up question.

You say may be required to sell the property. In what circumstances could you keep it?

ChatGPT said:​

Great question — here's how it works:

When a temporary resident may be required to sell the property:​

If you bought an established dwelling (i.e. a second-hand house or apartment) as a temporary resident, FIRB approval typically comes with the condition that:

You must sell the property when you leave Australia permanently (i.e. when you no longer hold a valid visa that lets you live here).

---

When you can keep the property:​

You can keep the property if any of the following apply:

1. You become a permanent resident or citizen
   • Once your visa status changes, you're treated like any Australian when it comes to property ownership.
     
     
   • No need to sell — you can live in it, rent it out, or hold it long-term.
     
     
2. You bought a new property or land with the intention to build
   • New dwellings and vacant land developments are treated more leniently.
     
     
   • In many cases, you can retain these even after leaving, but FIRB approval conditions still apply — some may still require disposal if you're no longer living in Australia.
3. You receive an exemption or special permission from FIRB
   • Rare, but sometimes allowed if, for example, you own the property with a spouse who is a citizen/permanent resident.

---

Quick summary:​

Situation	Can you keep the property?
You become a PR or citizen	Yes
You bought a new property or off-the-plan	Usually, depending on FIRB conditions
You leave Australia permanently	Usually must sell (if it’s an established dwelling)
You co-own with an Aussie citizen/PR	Possibly (depends on structure/approval)