The best school of football for Australia

[Quicky]

With regard to Solanke or statistics? Because I wasn't being serious about Solanke if you missed the winky face. I just find it ironic that you pointed to statistics to suggest Solanke was no good (Ange thread) and now say statistics are a fad. I agree they don't tell the full story, but they are useful.

 

[LFC]

Yes Son has gone off some especially this season more than last.
I don’t see him getting enough ball actually.
It’s strange for their overall midfield isn’t too bad and Maddison being the key, they out possess most teams they play against and their for and against isn’t that bad whatsoever - infact GF just one behind LFC.

 

[The Flying Bat]

With regard to Solanke or statistics? Because I wasn't being serious about Solanke if you missed the winky face. I just find it ironic that you pointed to statistics to suggest Solanke was no good (Ange thread) and now say statistics are a fad. I agree they don't tell the full story, but they are useful.

Ironic? Hardly??

Citing how many goals someone has scored, particularly a newly signed big money centre forward isn't really on the same level as one of these statistics nerds who harp on about xG, PPDA or even the rudimentary statistics nerdy types who spend the entire game worrying about things like total defensive passes completed, defensive passes % accuracy forward passes % accuracy....

Talking about how many goals a striker in this case Solanke scores for his new club after a £65m transfer is just part of the storyline of the game.....


Full pitch total passes completed : Australia 339, Japan 435 is nerdy as.....

 

[Quicky]

Ironic? Hardly??

Citing how many goals someone has scored, particularly a newly signed big money centre forward isn't really on the same level as one of these statistics nerds who harp on about xG, PPDA or even the rudimentary statistics nerdy types who spend the entire game worrying about things like total defensive passes completed, defensive passes % accuracy forward passes % accuracy....

Talking about how many goals a striker in this case Solanke scores for his new club after a £65m transfer is just part of the storyline of the game.....


Full pitch total passes completed : Australia 339, Japan 435 is nerdy as.....

Ironic because you said a forward can have zero goals and be the best player on the field, then said Solanke was no good because he hasn't scored in 6 games (fwiw he has 3 goals + 2 assists across 10 games in the EPL/Europa League).

 

[The Flying Bat]

Ironic because you said a forward can have zero goals and be the best player on the field, then said Solanke was no good because he hasn't scored in 6 games (fwiw he has 3 goals + 2 assists across 10 games in the EPL/Europa League).

No I said......

I'm a firm believer that a player can have 0 goals and assists in a game but be the most influential & best player on the field.

That hardly applies to Solanke who hasn't really been Spurs most influential player, goals ir no goals....

Watching the Bayern v Union game early this morning and I bet 99% of the crowd cared little about how many angled passes in the middle third Musiala made, how many defensive interventions Olise made in the final third or how many times Eric Dier scratched his nuts sitting on the bench.....

But how many goals Harry Kane scored again would have been enormously talked about on the subway journey back to Odeonsplatz!

Players like Kane are hugely influential, goals or no goals. As are players like Musiala who doesn't score ss much as Kane but is probably the better all round player.

What does Solanke do?

 

[Quicky]

No I said......



That hardly applies to Solanke who hasn't really been Spurs most influential player, goals ir no goals....

Watching the Bayern v Union game early this morning and I bet 99% of the crowd cared little about how many angled passes in the middle third Musiala made, how many defensive interventions Olise made in the final third or how many times Eric Dier scratched his nuts sitting on the bench.....

But how many goals Harry Kane scored again would have been enormously talked about on the subway journey back to Odeonsplatz!

Players like Kane are hugely influential, goals or no goals. As are players like Musiala who doesn't score ss much as Kane but is probably the better all round player.

What does Solanke do?

I didn't misquote you, all good if you miss the irony.

On Solanke, I'll circle back to my original point and leave it there. I don't think it's fair to compare Solanke to Kane. Kane is a generational talent that doesn't come around often. Solanke should be compared to Solanke. The verdict is out there with a lot to play out.

 

[The Flying Bat]

I probably should have worded it differently. My point was all these fancy statistics trotted out by the nerds are for the nerdy nerds and most fans wouldn't be that fussed either way as long as they win or are reasonably entertained.

 

[grazorblade]

I seriously question why why the ongoing Dutch so called methodology.
I get it during the Cruyff period and players that followed through those decades And his tenure at Barca but his methods vision was working with top flight players.
Sure Ajax etc are known as development club/and league but they don't have players in top flight numbers like latinos/sth merican and other euro countries unless I'm mistaken.
Sure there is some brilliant players just I'm always thinking why can't we tailor what suits our DNA and the type of players we are producing.
We are following and really can't see us looking confident/dominate but grafters.
The other question in regards to top flight football leagues and WC the Dutch have been one of the many making up the numbers for a long long time.
I'm no rocket stats type of person but for the keen eye having been a player and viewer all my life.
I tend to agree in quite a few comments made by the Batman.

I don't think we are using dutch, even though Hans Berger was dutch. However, there are similarities between most continental football programs. The GIG approach we now use is followed in england, but the sample sessions we have are more similar to continental programs. The ntc phases out pure fitness training and training where players are just standing around (england has this too) and has a lot of smaller games so kids get more chances to touch the ball and learn.

 

[grazorblade]

On "training the creativity out of players"
I hear the same complaint in England and kind of everywhere. Seems to be a global complaint.
Probably due to the fact that you can be more successful by coaching to a system in any league in the world and coaches that allow more flexibility tend to be less successful. Not saying there is no flexibility, and some coaches will be more flexible than others, but there is probably less flexibility today in top leagues than 20 years ago.
Unless south america dominate club football, it is unlikely to change soon imo. Hopefully the expanded club world cup is successful and Brazillian club football find their mojo

 

[onedaywinners...]

Creativity is innate in all of us. We are creative by nature and all that needs to be done is to design training environments that allow opportunities for complex movement solutions to arise organically.

How these problems are solved can then be creatively explored, discovered and learned by each individual.

 

[Decentric]

How about we start a thread that attacks you personally because that's exactly what this is and see how you like it.

I'm no mate of Decentric's as anyone from the other forum will tell you. (Didn't even make his list of illustrious posters worthy of transitioning to the new site.)

This is nothing more than a personal attack on him. Trying to defend this just makes you look more like the idiot you are. You are your mates 20 year campaign against him from FA and on 442 is nothing less than outright harassment.

You are obviously a very worthy recruit to G and G FC, Muz!

A strong character taking an ethical, moral stance is needed on any forum, like you've just done..

 

[Quicky]

Its what happens when "new football" takes over the hen house. Some view football as an intellectual exercise and despite countless "fact finding missions" overseas and gleaning wisdom from the sharpest scientific football minds in the known universe (at least according to the AFL/NRL loving teachers and accountants in Football House), miss the point completely. Mediocrity for Australian football is the end game for those within the system who should know better. As for those who only realised football is a sport post Lowy.. they don't know any better and just parrot the latest pseudo-babble they "research"... it used to really piss me off, now I just skip past it..... or at least try to

I find this really interesting and it got me thinking. I see a lot of benefits in having a national curriculum. There needs to be some structure and cohesiveness in development. Resources for clubs and coaches. There are a lot of junior teams that struggle to find anyone interested let-alone someone with experience to coach. That's my secondhand experience with grass roots clubs, and nothing to hang a hat on.

But it's also somewhat (or a lot) disrespectful to grass roots or semi pro clubs that have a history, structure and heritage of producing players before there was a national curriculum. That their approach has nothing to offer or should be replaced. I can see why that would have gone down poorly. There needs to be more respect and understanding there.

My impression is the national curriculum is a good thing across a lot of the game. But it has been so rigid and aggressive in its application that its put many off/or failed to recognise the good work many have done and do without it.

It makes me wonder if there is opportunity to loosen the reins and have more diversity in youth development. It may allow different approaches to develop players with different qualities and thats gotta be good.

You think about the NSL teams that have and still do produce a large number of National Team players. Why limit/control them, what they do works.

I also think of comments from the Toure boys old man who said (I paraphrase, probably poorly) for his boys to ignore what a lot of coaches taught, because he wanted them to keep their flair and he thought it was getting coached out. Mohamed Toure is probably going to be our next number 9 and will have gotten there in part by ignoring the structures trying to be imposed, albeit polished through youth clubs and AU.

I think you want structure and resources but not so tightly enforced it stymies existing clubs that have been doing good things for decades or new clubs who might innovate. A framework and guidance if needed but able to step back too if needed.

 

[grazorblade]

I find this really interesting and it got me thinking. I see a lot of benefits in having a national curriculum. There needs to be some structure and cohesiveness in development. Resources for clubs and coaches. There are a lot of junior teams that struggle to find anyone interested let-alone someone with experience to coach. That's my secondhand experience with grass roots clubs, and nothing to hang a hat on.

But it's also somewhat (or a lot) disrespectful to grass roots or semi pro clubs that have a history, structure and heritage of producing players before there was a national curriculum. That their approach has nothing to offer or should be replaced. I can see why that would have gone down poorly. There needs to be more respect and understanding there.

My impression is the national curriculum is a good thing across a lot of the game. But it has been so rigid and aggressive in its application that its put many off/or failed to recognise the good work many have done and do without it.

It makes me wonder if there is opportunity to loosen the reins and have more diversity in youth development. It may allow different approaches to develop players with different qualities and thats gotta be good.

You think about the NSL teams that have and still do produce a large number of National Team players. Why limit/control them, what they do works.

I also think of comments from the Toure boys old man who said (I paraphrase, probably poorly) for his boys to ignore what a lot of coaches taught, because he wanted them to keep their flair and he thought it was getting coached out. Mohamed Toure is probably going to be our next number 9 and will have gotten there in part by ignoring the structures trying to be imposed, albeit polished through youth clubs and AU.

I think you want structure and resources but not so tightly enforced it stymies existing clubs that have been doing good things for decades or new clubs who might innovate. A framework and guidance if needed but able to step back too if needed.

Yeah i dont know of a euro country that wouldnt have a national curriculum (though they might not call it a ntc. But it will be the same thing, a free coach course with sample sessions for different ages then paid courses for licenses)

The rigidness is an interesting point, aloisi said his instructor said u have to do 433, but ive heard other coaches not have that experience. It probably had to do with the personality of your instructor.

The mo toure anecdote is interesting, especially since i dont see toure as having a lot of flair! But whatever got him to the point he is at im glad for it!

 

[Decentric]

Its what happens when "new football" takes over the hen house. Some view football as an intellectual exercise and despite countless "fact finding missions" overseas and gleaning wisdom from the sharpest scientific football minds in the known universe (at least according to the AFL/NRL loving teachers and accountants in Football House), miss the point completely. Mediocrity for Australian football is the end game for those within the system who should know better. As for those who only realised football is a sport post Lowy.. they don't know any better and just parrot the latest pseudo-babble they "research"... it used to really piss me off, now I just skip past it..... or at least try to

I'm sorry, but I can't express this any other way, this is a post based on what appears to be complete ignorance, Mono.

You are a highly educated and literate person, but it doesn't extrapolate to football coaching practices, if you sincerely believe what you have just written.

Aus was searching for a system to improve on what we had prior to Hiddink's appointment as Socceroo coach. Guus recommended Rob Baan for the National FFA TD Position.

All the changes and new methodology have been based on practices in four European powerhouses in circa 2010. There was, and is, a lot of crossover on the qualities of players the four have produced, and continue to produce, when analysed by the Berger led FFA Tech Dept.

The difference has seen a tactical metamorphosis for the AL Men, ALW, Socceroos, Matildas ( although Tony G deviated) and underage Aus national teams. Former Aus coaches and players not inculcated in the newer system, can't identify the tactical nuances that have occurred on the pitch.

They don't know about - the 4 main moments; comprehensive game based analysis; how to identify the four components of technique; Ball Possession and BPO in the three thirds of the pitch; devising 4 stage coaching proforma training models in training sessions on the pitch; etc, etc.

We have had to adopt all this to be competitive against opponents in countries where football is the main sport, or one of the two biggest sports. There is no other way.

In coach education courses, all AL coaches or national team coaches say the same thing when they address the course participants - that the game constantly evolves, and if a coach does not update his/her knowledge, one will be left behind. All are looking for an edge on other coaches. The now Australian tactical game plans are similar to Netherlands, Spain, France or Germany.

More Aussie coaches are coaching overseas. Without the recent coach education, they would have no hope of filling these positions.

I was in the old coaching system prior to Hiddink. We knew so little, and had so little imparted.

Your beloved NPL club would in all probability be using exactly the same practices that I've alluded to.

Straight after a KNVB coaching course, I had never coached rep football before, and the team I was assigned to won a state championship, with arguably a weaker squad than the opposition. It was all to do with contemporary top European practice, coaching against highly experienced coaches, without the same updated knowledge base and tools.

 

[Decentric]

From the athletic


Tried to coach?

I'm not sure there's a lot of detailed instructions in the coerver coaching methodology. It's short on practical strategies, tools and techniques and requires little knowledge of what is required to succeed at the top echelons of the modern game....

It might have had limited success in the 1970's but it's old hat nowadays. Anyone trying to sell this in the modern era will probably be laughed at around various federations.

Wiel Coerver and the Dutch KNVB are completely separate entities.

Coerver is a technical skills acquisition school, that originated from the Netherlands. It does not deal with tactics, communication, team structure, etc.

The Skills Acquisition Program was devised as a Coerver style skills program, but it was/is more game based.

 

[Decentric]

A common misconception with this so called KNVB methodology is that it produces more adaptable football players. But if you have watched much of the Eredivisie (broadcast on Triller tv+ in Australia) you begin to feel a bit bored by the stylistic attributes of their home grown players.

As an example I watched the game between Utrecht and Feyenoord the other day and it was an easy 2-0 win for the Rotterdam club. Feyenoord really just breezed through the game. 2-0 up early in the second half and nothing in reply from their opposition.

There was no reaction from the Utrecht players at all. They just kept on doing the same thing. Same thing, no adoption of play. Sure they've got a good technique and understand their tactics, the pattern of play and so on but unable to problem solve....

Just same ol, same ol, same ol....

A few weeks previous I watched Sparta lose in similar fashion to PSV. Although to be fair Sparta did score first but let PSV back into the game without having the adaptability to react and try something different.

Now when Donny Van De Beek went to Manchester United a few years ago one of the biggest concerns about his play early on was his inability to adapt to the plethora of situations you get in an English Premier League game. It was apparently very noticeable and many of his fellow players would scratch their heads wondering how he actually made it into the professional game....

If you watched these games where you condemned the Eredivisie, can you delineate which tactics the teams used?

How teams didn't adapt when they were losing?

Which formations did Sparta, PSV, Utrecht, Feyenoorde use in the matches played?

How did the formations evolve in the games played, depending on Ball Possession and Ball Possession Opposition, in different parts of the pitch?

What would you suggest the coaches do differently, who you claim didn't adapt sufficiently to the various scenarios they were in?

Up until recent times when the the EPL started importing a lot more tactically adept and better trained UEFA Continental coaches, the EPL was very simplistic tactically compared to other UEFA Big Five leagues, plus the Eredivisie.

The tactical improvement in the EPL has been due to the importation of greater tactical acumen from overseas coaches, trained in more sophisticated football methodology.

 

[Decentric]

Football or football as we know it is not an exact science. If you want a rigid playbook of 200 set routines play or coach American Football. In fact I've always thought that this KNVB methodology would be better suited to Grid Iron. Or in Australian terms you could easily adapt it to Rugby League.....

But I would keep the KNVB methodology well.away from the beautiful game. Football is art, it's about creativity and unorthodoxy.

A KNVB coaching culture in our game equates to an inflexible and unyielding grounding for young players. We should be eliminating it from the modern coaching programmes.

Given your bizarre proposition to terminate the KNVB/Clarefontaine/German/Spanish amalgam paradigm of coaching methodology we currently use in Aus, what would you suggest we use instead?

Why?

 

[Decentric]

And that's why i'm intrigued with the new technical plan put in place by Merrick and FA and to see what differentiates from the old FFA NC, disappointing is there is no news regarding it.
They only released news on the academy stuff but nothing else so far regarding the rest of the plan.

There would have to be only very minor adjustments. Hopefully, Merrick, and others, would have visited France/Netherlands/Spain etc, to ascertain what new coaching practices are being adopted?

Merrick doesn't have the football background - in that he was already an A Licence or Pro Licence qualified coach when the new coach education was made mandatory for Aus coaches.

EM only had to attend Football Aus National Conferences to maintain his coaching status.

 

[grazorblade]

There would have to be only very minor adjustments. Hopefully, Merrick, and others, would have visited France/Netherlands/Spain etc, to ascertain what new coaching practices are being adopted?

Merrick doesn't have the football background - in that he was already an A Licence or Pro Licence qualified coach when the new coach education was made mandatory for Aus coaches.

EM only had to attend Football Aus National Conferences to maintain his coaching status.

Only changes ive hear leaked are
1) scoring goals no longer listed under striking the ball to avoid underemphasizing it
2) bringing in state academies
3) bringing back the ais coe
Ernie also talked about us wanting to play more like ange, but nothing concrete

 

[Decentric]

You've obviously bought into it. Fair enough, each to their own.Your KNVB methodology talks about innovative solutions but it couldn't be an further from that. Sure it's not set plays per se but it's so called templates strategies certainly give you that notion....watch some Dutch football and see....

They sell you a system of coaching instruction manuals that leave you wondering why?

Football coaching needs to be more diverse than these tailor made regurgitations spruiked by these shysters from Amsterdam...

Have you visited a few pro clubs in Aus, France, Spain and espoused these views?

This writing looks familiar to me, and appears as a sock puppet account. Possibly by the same author as the one who started the thread as KNVB Mythology.

'Shysters, spruiked, sell you coaching instruction manuals, tailor made,' all terms I've seen repeatedly used by some extremely bitter people, who've repudiated the FFA NC on spurious grounds. These terms display ignorance about contemporary football practices and I've seen very few people specifically use them.

All are predicated on the ludicrous notion, that the Dutch conmen came to Aus to rip off the Aus public and impart shoddy football practices to naive Aussies!

Four posters who've had repeat bans from 442 have strong DNA for The Flying Bat, Vinnie Grella's Studs, and KNVB Mythology - one with no coaching knowledge whatsoever who perplexingly has Dutch origins, but thinks Aussies are innately incapable of playing like the Dutch - another an ambitious coach from the pre Guus days, banned from coaching kids - another whose father was a youth football coach in Aus unwanted by FFA, and, he himself being the owner of a very dodgy football forum - the last a frequent jailbird and strip club owner.

None have posted as their better known user names on G and G FC - yet. I wonder why?

All have one thing in common - being some of the worst trolls on the Aus football internet! They hate the AL, Socceroos, Matildas, the NC, etc.