The best school of football for Australia

[Decentric]

Only changes ive hear leaked are
1) scoring goals no longer listed under striking the ball to avoid underemphasizing it
2) bringing in state academies
3) bringing back the ais coe
Ernie also talked about us wanting to play more like ange, but nothing concrete

They are all pretty good.

Phew - I'm relieved!

 

[Decentric]

No I said......



That hardly applies to Solanke who hasn't really been Spurs most influential player, goals ir no goals....

Watching the Bayern v Union game early this morning and I bet 99% of the crowd cared little about how many angled passes in the middle third Musiala made, how many defensive interventions Olise made in the final third or how many times Eric Dier scratched his nuts sitting on the bench.....

But how many goals Harry Kane scored again would have been enormously talked about on the subway journey back to Odeonsplatz!

Players like Kane are hugely influential, goals or no goals. As are players like Musiala who doesn't score ss much as Kane but is probably the better all round player.

What does Solanke do?

You have to be one of four people!

What don't you declare your regular name on the football interweb?

In the EPL SAF, Arsene W and Sam Allardyce were the first coaches to use stats a lot in the EPL. (Source Simon Kuper.)

According to Simon Kuper, even a few years back, all EPL coaches analyse stats now.

In Aus's last few games against China the stats show Aus should have won easily. In the Japan game they indicate Japan should have won - which didn't occur. There is also an element of luck. 40% of any game is attributable to chance according to evidence based research.

 

[Decentric]

I find this really interesting and it got me thinking. I see a lot of benefits in having a national curriculum. There needs to be some structure and cohesiveness in development. Resources for clubs and coaches. There are a lot of junior teams that struggle to find anyone interested let-alone someone with experience to coach. That's my secondhand experience with grass roots clubs, and nothing to hang a hat on.

But it's also somewhat (or a lot) disrespectful to grass roots or semi pro clubs that have a history, structure and heritage of producing players before there was a national curriculum. That their approach has nothing to offer or should be replaced. I can see why that would have gone down poorly. There needs to be more respect and understanding there.

My impression is the national curriculum is a good thing across a lot of the game. But it has been so rigid and aggressive in its application that its put many off/or failed to recognise the good work many have done and do without it.

It makes me wonder if there is opportunity to loosen the reins and have more diversity in youth development. It may allow different approaches to develop players with different qualities and thats gotta be good.

You think about the NSL teams that have and still do produce a large number of National Team players. Why limit/control them, what they do works.

I also think of comments from the Toure boys old man who said (I paraphrase, probably poorly) for his boys to ignore what a lot of coaches taught, because he wanted them to keep their flair and he thought it was getting coached out. Mohamed Toure is probably going to be our next number 9 and will have gotten there in part by ignoring the structures trying to be imposed, albeit polished through youth clubs and AU.

I think you want structure and resources but not so tightly enforced it stymies existing clubs that have been doing good things for decades or new clubs who might innovate. A framework and guidance if needed but able to step back too if needed.

Interesting comment from the Toure boys' Dad? I'd love to have a convo with him about specifics? Strikers need so much individual work on top of team training.

I've coached the NC at rep level and at a NPL club. It isn't rigid at all. Coaches have a lot of autonomy to coach within a framework with the NC.

The example I will use, is to evaluate the Aus U23s and U 20s coming through. There are so many good players with better technique than the past.

The NC has really improved senior players' tactical understanding, hence performance - which is much easier to acquire at an advanced age.

However, it is far harder to acquire technical improvement quickly at a more advanced age. Players keep improving technically until when they retire, but to gain really good technique, players have to start young. It is virtually impossible to catch up later.

 

[The Flying Bat]

If someone else has a different opinion on a particular topic or issue it doesn't always mean they are a troll from another forum.

We all have different opinions on such matters.

A person who always has to be right has a fragile ego. Their self-esteem is so frail that if they are challenged, their ego cannot tolerate admitting a mistake. Instead, the person who must always be right will actually distort reality in their minds and twist it to protect themselves.

 

[Decentric]

One issue that has been discussed off forum is to why there is so much hostility directed towards the NC?

Sadly, the introduction of of the NC could probably have been handled better. Socceroo Australia's top coaches Soccer Aus's Tech Dir Ron Smith, Raul Blanco, Les Scheinflug and Rocky O'Connor, were shown the door by FFA. They probably should have been upskilled and re-educated.

A loss for some former NSL clubs, because just another state league club. There was a great deal of downward status associated with former NSL coaches who had held high status within Aus football.

The KNVB staff coaches and Dutch coaches imported to Aus treated us like we knew little about football - which was very true compared to them. It was not difficult for coaches lower down the echelons, who were keen to learn new coaching practices. Others closer to the the top echelons were displaced, and some lost livelihoods.

 

[The Flying Bat]

'F*ck off!' - Netherlands legend Gullit slams KNVB for holding back Black coaches | Goal.com Australia

Dutch legend Ruud Gullit expressed his frustration at the lack of opportunities for Black coaches in Dutch football, saying that he believes even the best Black Dutch candidates haven't been given the chance to truly make their mark in the coaching ranks.

www.goal.com

Ruud Guillit one of Holland's greatest football players and a experienced football coach in his own right exposes the closed shop mentalities of the KNVB coaching Mafia.

Netherlands legend Ruud Gullit expressed his frustration at the lack of opportunities for Black coaches in Dutch football, saying that he believes even the best Black Dutch candidates haven't been given the chance to truly make their mark in the national team coaching ranks.

“We are talking about equal opportunities for everyone. When those equal opportunities present themselves, there are immediately people who say: 'Yes, but you have to have the quality.' I think that's so bad, it almost sounds like you're saying we don't have quality. I find that very bad.”

Certainly not a culture of exclusion that we want in here in Australia.

Another very good reason to give KNVB and their cohorts the red card from Australian football.

 

[The Flying Bat]

My final point on this topic is I haven't seen any definitive evidence that importing this KNVB methodology into Australian football has improves the quality of Australian football players. In fact I'd say it's had a detrimental effect because the quality if Australia's football players has gotten worse.

In conclusion....

A bunch of dodgy door to door salesmen carrying empty suitcases!...

 

[booney52]

For developing good close control and being able to play under pressure you can't beat futsal.Also in my very young days playing in the street also developed these qualities-still happens in Africa and Latin America.

 

[LFC]

You have to be one of four people!

What don't you declare your regular name on the football interweb?

In the EPL SAF, Arsene W and Sam Allardyce were the first coaches to use stats a lot in the EPL. (Source Simon Kuper.)

According to Simon Kuper, even a few years back, all EPL coaches analyse stats now.

In Aus's last few games against China the stats show Aus should have won easily. In the Japan game they indicate Japan should have won - which didn't occur. There is also an element of luck. 40% of any game is attributable to chance according to evidence based research.

ofcourse stats was coming into the game - and the modern game took to it like wildfire - incl the countless other additions the Pro game expanded on.
Just look at the employee list of the big Clubs - like corporations.
I've read Kupers but he's late on this subject such as this of his hence the modern day coachs named.

Keep your eye on the stats

Subscribers // by Simon Kuper (Le Monde diplomatique - English edition, July 2013)

mondediplo.com

This below I'm sure you'd find more facinating for its the pioneer long before used in English Div1 pre EPL.

Nutmeg Magazine. The Scottish football periodical

Nutmeg is a high-class home for quality articles about Scottish football’s past, present and future

www.nutmegmagazine.co.uk

Wow young un's, look up Graham Taylor was a legend back in the day.

Anway as I've mentioned in other discussions when talking top leagues its not like for like - players who have made it (well not all are that great) have the ability been picked for top levels we're talking grass roots up pre Snr's that our system/s, be it not Dutch I'm led to believe but for Burgers name, be it a mix of countless styles has its flaws at the same time.
Too rigid, stifled individual promising young players, possession possession reset reset reset - we do have robots no one can deny this.
We have NO true strikers, regular scorers, 1/2 midfield complete players.
We have imports such as Souttar - whereis more robust tall capable CB's like Souttar made in Oz.
There's plenty chemicals in the chickens eaten today, why haven't we got any monsters
I don't want to hear wait for this next U23 gen, I have heard read of this for 20yrs.
The Japs have left us behind, as some other asian/ME NT's have shown as well.

When I grew up before all this analysis, it was in the Coach's head, their experience, their nouse watching players in varied positions and their ability.
You sure well can tell when someone "has" it or the potential.
Having played Div1 and Rep my Jnr's and mature age Div1 I have watched some very talented individuals that the last 20yrs would have been driven out of the game or had to change their natural game 3fold to stay in the game.
As the winning Argie WC coach said recently and this is due to stats/methodologys imo :

Scaloni: "We are losing the essence of football, and not only at the professional level, but also at the kids’ level"​

Question: What is missing and what is there too much of in football?
Scaloni: There is too much analysis in football, too much. Nowadays everyone knows how the opponent plays, there is so much information that in the end the most important thing, which is the footballer, is controlled by remote control. And in our case, I don't know with other teams, you run the risk of losing the essence, of taking away from the player what he has best. If you are constantly telling him what to do, you run that risk. We transmit what is fair, what we believe we have to transmit, what is really important, so as not to overwhelm you with information. We are losing the essence of football, and not only at the professional level, but at the children's level as well. My children play in Spain and they are overwhelmed with information. They receive the ball and are already being told what to do.

Question: That's why there are fewer and fewer dribblers?
Scaloni: Sure. There are no dribblers because if they barely receive the ball you say "Pass it!"... Imagine if Messi, when he was eight years old, had been told all the time "Pass it!" his coaches, today we wouldn't have him. It's something impressive. Since football has ended up being such a big thing, everyone reads, studies, and believes that with that they can lead. You tell a 7 or 8 year old child to make a run, to make the coverage... he is seven years old! Let him play ball, make mistakes, and when he is 14 or 15 we start correcting him. It is a message for the future. This is a sport and the beauty of football should not be lost.

It is becoming robotic - oh he/she is a hog, you can't be selfish, everyone is a winner at Jnr level, well won't they suffer mental health forging ahead - your gonna cop loss's petal.
You know what the system should be endorsing now is ? encouraging the budding individual to be let loose.
Encouraged how to work with his/her team mates but go for it - this will counter act the robots, they don't know how to deal when "jokers" are released in the pack.
There's the hole to expose.

 

[The Flying Bat]

ofcourse stats was coming into the game - and the modern game took to it like wildfire - incl the countless other additions the Pro game expanded on.
Just look at the employee list of the big Clubs - like corporations.
I've read Kupers but he's late on this subject such as this of his hence the modern day coachs named.

Keep your eye on the stats

Subscribers // by Simon Kuper (Le Monde diplomatique - English edition, July 2013)

mondediplo.com

This below I'm sure you'd find more facinating for its the pioneer long before used in English Div1 pre EPL.

Nutmeg Magazine. The Scottish football periodical

Nutmeg is a high-class home for quality articles about Scottish football’s past, present and future

www.nutmegmagazine.co.uk

Anway as I've mentioned in other discussions when talking top leagues its not like for like - players who have made it (well not all are that great) have the ability been picked for top levels we're talking grass roots up pre Snr's that our system/s, be it not Dutch I'm led to believe but for Burgers name, be it a mix of countless styles has its flaws at the same time.
Too rigid, stifled individual promising young players, possession possession reset reset reset - we do have robots no one can deny this.
We have NO true strikers, regular scorers, 1/2 midfield complete players.
We have imports such as Souttar - whereis more robust tall capable CB's liek Souttar made in Oz.
There's plenty cheicals in the chickens eaten today, why haven't we got any monsters
I don't want to hear wait for this next U23 gen, I have heard read of this for 20yrs.
The Japs have left us behind, as some other asian/ME NT's have shown as well.

When I grew up before all this analysis, it was in the Coach's head, their experience, their nouse watching players in varied positions and their ability.
You sure well can tell when someone "has" it or the potential.
Having played Div1 and Rep my Jnr's and mature age Div1 I have watched some very talented individuals that the last 20yrs would have been driven out of the game or had to change their natural game 3fold to stay in the game.
As the winning Argie WC coach said recently and this is due to stats/methodologys imo :

Scaloni: "We are losing the essence of football, and not only at the professional level, but also at the kids’ level"​

It is becoming robotic - oh he/she is a hog, you can't be selfish, everyone is a winner at Jnr level, well won't they suffer mental health forging ahead - your gonna cop loss's petal.
You know what the system should be endorsing now is ? encouraging the budding individual to be let loose.
Encouraged how to work with his/her team mates but go for it - this will counter act the robots, they don't know how to deal when "jokers" are released in the pack.
There's the hole to expose.

I think it's a result of an intensification of dialogue around the game is a reason why this never ending bombardment of meaningless statistics has crept into the analysis.

It's perfectly fine to use basic stats we've all grown up but you need to contextualize them to storyline of the match you're looking at.

You can look at goals, shots on target, shots per game, shots per goal and it feels perfectly comfortable within the serenity of watch a match or looking back on it afterwards.

But expected assists, assists percentage, key passes, big chances, dribbles, dribbles per game, dribble percentage, total passing distance, passing accuracy, long balls, throughballs, xT, xG, npxG, xA blah blah....Yawwwwwn!!

It's way too nerdy for me. Nerds are killing the enjoyable storyline of football. Craig Foster was a good 'in game' and 'after game' analyst in Australian terms and never hyperboled the statistics side of football analysis.

Nice article grabs though LFC!

 

[grazorblade]

One issue that has been discussed off forum is to why there is so much hostility directed towards the NC?

Sadly, the introduction of of the NC could probably have been handled better. Socceroo Australia's top coaches Soccer Aus's Tech Dir Ron Smith, Raul Blanco, Les Scheinflug and Rocky O'Connor, were shown the door by FFA. They probably should have been upskilled and re-educated.

A loss for some former NSL clubs, because just another state league club. There was a great deal of downward status associated with former NSL coaches who had held high status within Aus football.

The KNVB staff coaches and Dutch coaches imported to Aus treated us like we knew little about football - which was very true compared to them. It was not difficult for coaches lower down the echelons, who were keen to learn new coaching practices. Others closer to the the top echelons were displaced, and some lost livelihoods.

Indeed that would make sense of why there was so much irrational rage towards it (add to the fact there was a bunch of ready to listen disenfranchised fans after the shut down of the nsl for the a league) and why it is difficult for critics to even get the basics right about what they are criticizing. Also would make sense why so many on anarchy trolls ended up far right (the far right tends to attract people who had high status and are downwardly mobile)

Also apart from dividing football, replacement over upskilling surely has a detrimental effect. Yes senior coaching is different to junior coaching, but after roarcelona took the a league by storm, just about every senior coach in Australia wants to play like ange. But it isn't exactly easy and none have looked much like ange

I can imagine a lot of innate talent was lost throwing people away, not just those that lost their livelihood but also volunteers putting their heart and soul into coaching

Having said that it simply isn't true that there has been no improvement. Two ways of measuring this
1) We are better at punching above our weight with the senior team getting better results than you would expect given our players mediocre club careers. On 442 I did a statistical analysis and no other country I looked at had any where near the gap we had between club and country performance
2) Early signs that despite the headwinds of discarding a u20 comp and the ais, there is a substantial increase in young players getting game time in Europe. This hasn't improved the NT much yet as the prime age players (those born 1992-1997) are players too old to get benefits of the SAP programs but that generation probably suffered from the wind down of the ais and nyl

 

[Decentric]

My final point on this topic is I haven't seen any definitive evidence that importing this KNVB methodology into Australian football has improves the quality of Australian football players. In fact I'd say it's had a detrimental effect because the quality if Australia's football players has gotten worse.

In conclusion....

A bunch of dodgy door to door salesmen carrying empty suitcases!...

What you aren't taking into account is that Australia has improved as a team unit. Players have been inculcated in training practices that enable them to play more effectively as a team unit, due to the organisational and communication practices on the training ground adopted since circa 2008 onwards.

I've repeatedly read this false narrative about 'dodgy salespeople, snake oil salesmen, etc,' elsewhere amongst a number of disaffected Aus football haters. You are slandering world renowned training methodology, with no specifics. You use too many phrases denigrating the NC I've seen written elsewhere, with no substantive rationale, Flying Bat.

Players aren't robots if they are more effective in running off the ball to open the optimum angled passing lanes to support their ball carrying teammates and progress the build ups forwards.

Australia frequently possesses the ball for sustained periods whilst progressing forwards in the build up, not ceding turnovers. Conversely, if one looks at the pre NC days, the turnovers were far more frequent in the Socceroos. Players didn't know how to move in support of the ball carrier, at what angle and at which moment, as effectively as they do now.

As others and I have suggested the main issue is goal conversion from the chances that should be created in the Aus pen box. This has empirical evidence.

 

[grazorblade]

"Players aren't robots"

Interesting you hear the "we are producing robots" and "players are having their creativity coached out of them" in England too. Here it is of course blamed on the ntc (usually without specifics). However the fact I hear the exact same phrase in England makes me wonder if this is the dominance of systems and structure in the modern game?

"As others and I have suggested the main issue is goal conversion from the chances that should be created in the Aus pen box. This has empirical evidence."

Indeed and glad they fixed that, though it might take some time for coaches to be upskilled on goal scoring. However, the need to fix it by centralization is a symptom of a lack of a pyramid. Taking an analogy of even University physics education - the IOP sets a minimum standard through a combination of regulations and a national curriculum. But I doubt oxford and cambridge are following the national curriculum to a letter - they innovate to improve on it. Similarly, I doubt Barca academy follow the spanish coaching course to a tee, they innovate. The only way to innovate is to have competition which in football is facilitated by a pyramid. Centralized curricula will always have unforseen flaws. Clubs in a pyramid, however can head hunt the best coaches who know how to improve on the curriculum. In any case, the base level training is a lot more fun and effective than what I went through as a kid

 

[Decentric]

ofcourse stats was coming into the game - and the modern game took to it like wildfire - incl the countless other additions the Pro game expanded on.
Just look at the employee list of the big Clubs - like corporations.
I've read Kupers but he's late on this subject such as this of his hence the modern day coachs named.

Keep your eye on the stats

Subscribers // by Simon Kuper (Le Monde diplomatique - English edition, July 2013)

mondediplo.com

This below I'm sure you'd find more facinating for its the pioneer long before used in English Div1 pre EPL.

Nutmeg Magazine. The Scottish football periodical

Nutmeg is a high-class home for quality articles about Scottish football’s past, present and future

www.nutmegmagazine.co.uk

Wow young un's, look up Graham Taylor was a legend back in the day.

Anway as I've mentioned in other discussions when talking top leagues its not like for like - players who have made it (well not all are that great) have the ability been picked for top levels we're talking grass roots up pre Snr's that our system/s, be it not Dutch I'm led to believe but for Burgers name, be it a mix of countless styles has its flaws at the same time.
Too rigid, stifled individual promising young players, possession possession reset reset reset - we do have robots no one can deny this.
We have NO true strikers, regular scorers, 1/2 midfield complete players.
We have imports such as Souttar - whereis more robust tall capable CB's like Souttar made in Oz.
There's plenty chemicals in the chickens eaten today, why haven't we got any monsters
I don't want to hear wait for this next U23 gen, I have heard read of this for 20yrs.
The Japs have left us behind, as some other asian/ME NT's have shown as well.

When I grew up before all this analysis, it was in the Coach's head, their experience, their nouse watching players in varied positions and their ability.
You sure well can tell when someone "has" it or the potential.
Having played Div1 and Rep my Jnr's and mature age Div1 I have watched some very talented individuals that the last 20yrs would have been driven out of the game or had to change their natural game 3fold to stay in the game.
As the winning Argie WC coach said recently and this is due to stats/methodologys imo :

Scaloni: "We are losing the essence of football, and not only at the professional level, but also at the kids’ level"​

It is becoming robotic - oh he/she is a hog, you can't be selfish, everyone is a winner at Jnr level, well won't they suffer mental health forging ahead - your gonna cop loss's petal.
You know what the system should be endorsing now is ? encouraging the budding individual to be let loose.
Encouraged how to work with his/her team mates but go for it - this will counter act the robots, they don't know how to deal when "jokers" are released in the pack.
There's the hole to expose.

Have a look at when Argentina plays.

They build up systematically, using similar off the ball movement to Aus, trying to create triangles and diamonds. They simply do it better.

Argentinian players have faster handling speed, a more assured first touch, and better passing accuracy, hence enabling them to work effectively in less time and space, but the naysayers of the Aus NC surely would not define them as robotic?

 

[grazorblade]

Have a look at when Argentina plays.

They build up systematically, using similar off the ball movement to Aus, trying to create triangles and diamonds. They simply do it better.

Argentinian players have faster handling speed, a more assured first touch, and better passing accuracy, hence enabling them to work effectively in less time and space, but the naysayers of the Aus NC surely would not define them as robotic?

To some degree south americans are complaining. They use different language "the europeanization" of their style. I posted a video on conmenbol thread on this with some discussion.

 

[Quicky]

What you aren't taking into account is that Australia has improved as a team unit. Players have been inculcated in training practices that enable them to play more effectively as a team unit, due to the organisational and communication practices on the training ground adopted since circa 2008 onwards.

Taught > inculcate. Sometimes plain English is better.

 

[The Flying Bat]

What you aren't taking into account is that Australia has improved as a team unit. Players have been inculcated in training practices that enable them to play more effectively as a team unit, due to the organisational and communication practices on the training ground adopted since circa 2008 onwards.

I've repeatedly read this false narrative about 'dodgy salespeople, snake oil salesmen, etc,' elsewhere amongst a number of disaffected Aus football haters. You are slandering world renowned training methodology, with no specifics. You use too many phrases denigrating the NC I've seen written elsewhere, with no substantive rationale, Flying Bat.

Players aren't robots if they are more effective in running off the ball to open the optimum angled passing lanes to support their ball carrying teammates and progress the build ups forwards.

Australia frequently possesses the ball for sustained periods whilst progressing forwards in the build up, not ceding turnovers. Conversely, if one looks at the pre NC days, the turnovers were far more frequent in the Socceroos. Players didn't know how to move in support of the ball carrier, at what angle and at which moment, as effectively as they do now.

As others and I have suggested. I don't agree the main issue is goal conversion from the chances that should be created in the Aus pen box. This has empirical evidence.

No. I don't agree with your overblown comments. Did you receive commission from the KNVB for sales work?

Your spiel is similar to that used by a desperate solar panel door knocker....

 

[Monoethnic Social Club]

So now the Socceroos play like ...... Argentina? Oh boy ..... isn't that grand all the plebs just got inculcated.

 

[vo2Max]

No. I don't agree with your overblown comments. Did you receive commission from the KNVB for sales work?

Your spiel is similar to that used by a desperate solar panel door knocker....

FYI Decentric did an expensive KNVB course and received a certificate of participation.

He's been trading on this for the past dozen or so years.

Blew a chunk of his super and continues to suffer from buyer's remorse.

But I'm pretty you, and others here, already knew that.

 

[The Flying Bat]

FYI Decentric did an expensive KNVB course and received a certificate of participation.

He's been trading on this for the past dozen or so years.

Blew a chunk of his super and continues to suffer from buyer's remorse.

But I'm pretty you, and others here, already knew that.

He does appear somewhat obsessed with defending his special methodology. Almost as if he's been hypnotised, much in the same way Amway used to hypnotise it's salespeople....

It's definitely got that Amway feeling about it!