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Promotion and Relegation is vital for Football in Australia

The franchise model & the traditional p/r model cannot co-exist. The meritocracy of promotion is essentially incompatible with the pay-to-play franchise model that football in Australia is unfortunately built on.
 
erogenouszone said:
The franchise model & the traditional p/r model cannot co-exist. The meritocracy of promotion is essentially incompatible with the pay-to-play franchise model that football in Australia is unfortunately built on.
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been saying this for ages on 442.
2 different systems will never work together, I get it from the franchise side, if it we're my $$$'s invested bugga agreeing to being relegated.
I'm afraid NPL and below is locked out, only if the wall breaks down presents the opportunity of change.
 
LFC said:
been saying this for ages on 442.
2 different systems will never work together, I get it from the franchise side, if it we're my $$$'s invested bugga agreeing to being relegated.
I'm afraid NPL and below is locked out, only if the wall breaks down presents the opportunity of change.
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I dont know what the commercial agreements are, but a while back someone posted on 442 that if Perth Glory, as an example, wanted to pull out of the Aleague and participate in the NST they would have to use another name/badge/colours as their very identity is owned by the APL now ... yuk.
 
Monoethnic Social Club said:
I dont know what the commercial agreements are, but a while back someone posted on 442 that if Perth Glory, as an example, wanted to pull out of the Aleague and participate in the NST they would have to use another name/badge/colours as their very identity is owned by the APL now ... yuk.
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I'm pretty sure and not surprised re Franchising, the APL would own everything re the logos/colours/graphics/images you name it.
A Franchisor buys the License to trade, no more no less, hence they only gain by growth created of their (product/club) gate takings/merch/and % per season from their body/APL/Silverlake broadcast deal.
If the Franchisor opts out sell their license at profit happy days but but but it ain't no Maccas your selling here.

SOY, just no comparo talking MLS/NBA, when you have 360M pop and franchising is their DNA sports model enough billionaire's looking to expand their portfolio, just look at their broadcasting $$$.
Even Independant investors like Jordan, invests in a Nascar team for kicks/passion.
 
I'm sure someone will chime in with the APL and FA rules/regs agreement what was confirmed as they called it - unbundling of the AL/FA way back then.
My comments re Franchising comes from my experience of my auto industry ala Pedders/Autobarn's etcetc, the Franchisee owns nothing of the IP.
I'm sure the same applies to Maccas/Harvey Normans etc.
Good question re PG being exsistant pre AL.
I never kept up incl Fury etc.
 
LFC said:
I'm pretty sure and not surprised re Franchising, the APL would own everything re the logos/colours/graphics/images you name it.
A Franchisor buys the License to trade, no more no less, hence they only gain by growth created of their (product/club) gate takings/merch/and % per season from their body/APL/Silverlake broadcast deal.
If the Franchisor opts out sell their license at profit happy days but but but it ain't no Maccas your selling here.

SOY, just no comparo talking MLS/NBA, when you have 360M pop and franchising is their DNA sports model enough billionaire's looking to expand their portfolio, just look at their broadcasting $$$.
Even Independant investors like Jordan, invests in a Nascar team for kicks/passion.
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Mate MLS is even worse. It operates as a single entity and "owners" have a share in the MLS not just their individual clubs... Players contracts are with the MLS, licensing agreements are with the MLS, you can invest in the MLS and be allocated a "region" like Beckham with Miami or Messi when he has fulfilled his playing contract, will just be given a "franchise" to run...
 
Monoethnic Social Club said:
NOW, its an offical forum... hehehehe have at it boys and girls😻.
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Monoethnic Social Club said:
NOW, its an offical forum... hehehehe have at it boys and girls😻.
Click to expand...
Agree with the title.

P and R is a must in Aus. I can't imagine why there is any debate about P and R being integral, or even a thread started? Surely everybody thinks P and R as a concept is sound?

Otherwise a vast amount of football clubs are excluded from the chance of playing in the top leagues.

P and R is also an added incentive to winning a league - get promoted.
 
P&R would be great although,. I do doubt the wealth of a number of clubs that would perhaps win the NSD & get entry into the top league though. P&R in principle, is the best structure to go with as we all know.
 
The majority of people directly involved with the game would understand the importance of the P&R structure. It would be undeniable.
Question becomes how does it actually happen? Everyone is quick to point the finger at a single group, but every single group would need to undergo some serious changes and make varying sacrifices to varying degrees.
A-League clubs would need to accept that their licence would now have a on-field performance clause. Reasonable requirements for a promoted club would also need to be implemented. Club values would drop as a result. Many current owners would definitely look for a way out. Harder to get a good price for a club that could be relegated the following season.
NST would first need to exist and then the clubs would need to pretty much accept the same terms as above.
State feds would need to work together. Unlike other places in the world, our (current 2nd), 3rd, 4th, etc tiers are fractured across the states. Who gets promoted into the NST? Number of ways of doing it, but you can guarantee a consensus amongst the states feds and the FA would never be made.
Then there is the FA themaelves. They technically have the power to implement P&R if they wanted. However, seeing as they can't even seem to get a 10 team NST off the ground or a proper domestic transfer system running, P&R seems pretty much unobtainable at this point in time.
So realistically for a complete P&R pyramid to happen, we either need all the decision makers to actually magically agree on everything. Or, the state feds need to be dissolved and absorbed as departments within the FA, the FA then can make decisions on the structure of all NPL's, the NST need to created and have proper P&R clauses in their licence agreements from the beginning, the A-League needs to accept the relegation part of their current licences or have it added when licence renewals happen (whenever that is).
Yeah, not gonna happen.
Then the question becomes, can P&R happen between just the AL and NST or just the NST and NPL? What is involved in each scenario? What is more likely, the APL and FA working together or the State feds and the FA working together. Before I wrote that sentence I would have assumed an NST/NPL pyramid is more obtainable, but reading that out loud I'm not so sure. APL are greedy soul sucker's but so are the state feds. There is also just one APL board, whereas there are a bunch of state fed boards, each with their own agendas and egos. Some of them actively acted against their own clubs simply applying to join the NST.
Maybe one day. Not anytime soon though.
 
For those interested some of the evidence supporting p&r

1) clubs gain more in average attendance from getting promoted than they lose getting relegated. So if a club is not big enough for the top league but too big for the 2nd tier, they can grow through multiple years of yoyoing between the leagues. We even saw this effect in the nsl era where 4 teams yoyoed over 16 years and the average boost in crowd numbers from a team that got promoted the year after relegation was around 850. Ideally you want to set up a league structure so that there is a yoyo every year - which probably means eventually have a conference below the top tiers
2) participation rates go up a small amount for grass roots clubs geographically promoted team yet there is no decline in signups if you are near a relegated team
3) The quality of a system with p&r should improve slightly faster than a system without p&r. We have 2 pieces of evidences that this is also true in australia - a) the 5 year rolling average of fa cup goal differences b) the elo of the national team - allowing for a 5 year delay between the nsl improving and the elo of the national team Australia has a long plateau followed but a steady rise between 82 and 98 followed by a plateau for 26 years. A lot of noise of course in all three regions. However, for all the flaws with the nsl, I do think having the half hearted p&r from its inception to ~93 made a big difference
 
someguyjc said:
The majority of people directly involved with the game would understand the importance of the P&R structure. It would be undeniable.
Question becomes how does it actually happen? Everyone is quick to point the finger at a single group, but every single group would need to undergo some serious changes and make varying sacrifices to varying degrees.
A-League clubs would need to accept that their licence would now have a on-field performance clause. Reasonable requirements for a promoted club would also need to be implemented. Club values would drop as a result. Many current owners would definitely look for a way out. Harder to get a good price for a club that could be relegated the following season.
NST would first need to exist and then the clubs would need to pretty much accept the same terms as above.
State feds would need to work together. Unlike other places in the world, our (current 2nd), 3rd, 4th, etc tiers are fractured across the states. Who gets promoted into the NST? Number of ways of doing it, but you can guarantee a consensus amongst the states feds and the FA would never be made.
Then there is the FA themaelves. They technically have the power to implement P&R if they wanted. However, seeing as they can't even seem to get a 10 team NST off the ground or a proper domestic transfer system running, P&R seems pretty much unobtainable at this point in time.
So realistically for a complete P&R pyramid to happen, we either need all the decision makers to actually magically agree on everything. Or, the state feds need to be dissolved and absorbed as departments within the FA, the FA then can make decisions on the structure of all NPL's, the NST need to created and have proper P&R clauses in their licence agreements from the beginning, the A-League needs to accept the relegation part of their current licences or have it added when licence renewals happen (whenever that is).
Yeah, not gonna happen.
Then the question becomes, can P&R happen between just the AL and NST or just the NST and NPL? What is involved in each scenario? What is more likely, the APL and FA working together or the State feds and the FA working together. Before I wrote that sentence I would have assumed an NST/NPL pyramid is more obtainable, but reading that out loud I'm not so sure. APL are greedy soul sucker's but so are the state feds. There is also just one APL board, whereas there are a bunch of state fed boards, each with their own agendas and egos. Some of them actively acted against their own clubs simply applying to join the NST.
Maybe one day. Not anytime soon though.
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it would probably take a painful windy road. Probably only 2 ways that aren't mutually exclusive
1) p&r only between nst and npl until the nst grows into something big and stable. If it succeeds to the point of being competitive with the A league that probably forces the issue. If it is more like the second tier in the USA the the apl have incentive to ignore it
2) expand the a league through both licenses and promotion of nst clubs until it gets big enough to split into two. Then at minimum you can have p&r from the 1st to 2nd while also having promotion from the npl to the second. If both leagues get big enough you probably then eventually have p&r from npl to the 2nd
 
Ange's high line said:
P&R would be great although,. I do doubt the wealth of a number of clubs that would perhaps win the NSD & get entry into the top league though. P&R in principle, is the best structure to go with as we all know.
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What about the wealth of a number of clubs who, because there is no relegation, can just flounder around in the same old "entertainment" league every year, not doing or going anywhere?
 
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