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Best overseas leagues for Aussies?

Monoethnic Social Club said:
This doesnt make any sense though. If Aussie players are being coached in some sort of "worlds bets practice" then what difference does it make to these players individually what is or isnt reported in a newspaper or how many people watch AFL or one of the many rugbies?

Aren't they being sent overseas as the ultimate representation of your KNVB curriculum? Why are they NOT making any headway against players from "inferior" football methodologies?
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In Scotland as a second ball league, where movement off the ball is less than ideal, better movement to support the ball carrier isn’t valued to the same extent.

In Scotland winning second balls and 1 v1 physical clashes are paramount - which isn’t as valued in more technical leagues.

Conversely, Scottish players’ skill sets won’t be as attractive for more technical leagues to recruit Scots.
 
Decentric said:
In Scotland as a second ball league, where movement off the ball is less than ideal, better movement to support the ball carrier isn’t valued to the same extent.

In Scotland winning second balls and 1 v1 physical clashes are paramount - which isn’t as valued in more technical leagues.

Conversely, Scottish players’ skill sets won’t be as attractive for more technical leagues to recruit Scots.
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How do you explain 20 Scots currently playing in the EPL?

Only Brazil, France, Spain, Portugal, Ireland and Wales have more.
 
D
This below

In Scotland winning second balls and 1 v1 physical clashes are paramount - which isn’t as valued in more technical leagues.

Are you serious ?!
Where isn’t the above paramount in every single league from top to bottom !
You think it’s not paramount in SerieA winning loose balls, the epl ?
For Christ’s sake that’s your gaining control back no matter where on the park.
1v1 - Cheez we better not admire Salah taking on so many 1v1’s - getting surrounded, being fouled left right centre.
What are you watching ?!
Lurker spouse he doesn’t know who McTominay is let alone Robbo.
 
LFC said:
D
This below

In Scotland winning second balls and 1 v1 physical clashes are paramount - which isn’t as valued in more technical leagues.

Are you serious ?!
Where isn’t the above paramount in every single league from top to bottom !
You think it’s not paramount in SerieA winning loose balls, the epl ?
For Christ’s sake that’s your gaining control back no matter where on the park.
1v1 - Cheez we better not admire Salah taking on so many 1v1’s - getting surrounded, being fouled left right centre.
What are you watching ?!
Lurker spouse he doesn’t know who McTominay is let alone Robbo.
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It seems pretty uncontroversial to say countries have different priorities in terms of the skillsets they prioritise for players and the style of play. Eg Spain have had a big focus on passing and maintaining possession the past 20 years or so. To do this they would place less importance on winning second balls or winning 1v1 contests.
I don't think he is talking about individuals in the moment of a match. More about the culture of the country and what the priorities are for development and style.
 
I understand your comments very well CS and Spain isn't alone anymore re possession passing keeping the ball football.
They sure were the innovators introducing that style And they also want to win back the ball asap and or cut off pass's let alone win 50/50's that is 2nd nature, no player will stay back much when a loose ball is to be contested unless they are deep in their half defending not being drawn out leaving a hole.
I wonder how Simoene sees less importance winning 2nd balls and winning 1v1 contests thinks.
Aniesta/Xavi - pinnacle midfielders brilliant readers of the game less importance winning 2nd balls and 1v1 ?
Seriously I understand leagues style differences but dominating with and without the ball is the 110% objective over 90mins no matter the style/culture.
 
LFC said:
I understand your comments very well CS and Spain isn't alone anymore re possession passing keeping the ball football.
They sure were the innovators introducing that style And they also want to win back the ball asap and or cut off pass's let alone win 50/50's that is 2nd nature, no player will stay back much when a loose ball is to be contested unless they are deep in their half defending not being drawn out leaving a hole.
I wonder how Simoene sees less importance winning 2nd balls and winning 1v1 contests thinks.
Aniesta/Xavi - pinnacle midfielders brilliant readers of the game less importance winning 2nd balls and 1v1 ?
Seriously I understand leagues style differences but dominating with and without the ball is the 110% objective over 90mins no matter the style/culture.
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If you ask any coach do you value winning second ball? They will all give the same answer. Yes.
But it isn't an accurate answer. If a coach spends 100% of time in training working on passing, he values this more than defensive shape when not in possession.

There is a Gary Neville interview where he talks about the change in focus across his career. At the start of his career (I don't remember the exact numbers) 80% of time was spent on defending aspects. This gradually shifted across his career where at the end 80% of time was spent on work with the ball.

Where the time is spent indicates what aspect is valued. If Guardiola spends his time in training working on passing and Popa spends it working on winning second balls, Popa cares more about winning second balls.
 
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Lurker said:
How do you explain 20 Scots currently playing in the EPL?

Only Brazil, France, Spain, Portugal, Ireland and Wales have more.
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Good point.

Close proximity to England. Easy access for scouts. 20 Scots playing in the EPL is a decent number.

Then again that Ireland and Wales have more players, two smaller countries, is slight cause for concern.

Moreover, the EPL isn't the epicentre of world football like many in England think. There are 4 other quality leagues in the UEFA Big Five, plus Argentina and Brazil. There are also 30-40 big clubs in the smaller UEFA leagues too who are high quality and have success in intra-continental football, including Celtic and Rangers.

Few Scots play outside the UK. However, there was a Scot playing for Italy's Bologna when I watched them recently.
 
Cunningstunt said:
If you ask any coach do you value winning second ball? They will all give the same answer. Yes.
But it isn't an accurate answer. If a coach spends 100% of time in training working on passing, he values this more than defensive shape when not in possession.

There is a Gary Neville interview where he talks about the change in focus across his career. At the start of his career (I don't remember the exact numbers) 80% of time was spent on defending aspects. This gradually shifted across his career where at the end 80% of time was spent on work with the ball.

Where the time is spent indicates what aspect is valued. If Guardiolo spends his time in training working on passing and Popa spends it working on winning second balls, Popa cares more about winning second balls.
Click to expand...
Interesting post.
 
LFC said:
I understand your comments very well CS and Spain isn't alone anymore re possession passing keeping the ball football.
They sure were the innovators introducing that style And they also want to win back the ball asap and or cut off pass's let alone win 50/50's that is 2nd nature, no player will stay back much when a loose ball is to be contested unless they are deep in their half defending not being drawn out leaving a hole.
I wonder how Simoene sees less importance winning 2nd balls and winning 1v1 contests thinks.
Aniesta/Xavi - pinnacle midfielders brilliant readers of the game less importance winning 2nd balls and 1v1 ?
Seriously I understand leagues style differences but dominating with and without the ball is the 110% objective over 90mins no matter the style/culture.
Click to expand...
It is a question of the weighting.

Many other national feds - Netherlands, Germany, France, Spain, Belgium, Brazil - I'm sure one can add Aus and Japan, have a greater onus than Scotland in possessing the ball. They are still worried about 1v1s, but there is more work done on the training track in terms of team possession than Scotland.

A lot of it has emanated from Cruyff, KNVB, Barca Academy and the French Clarefontaine.
 
Cunningstunt said:
If you ask any coach do you value winning second ball? They will all give the same answer. Yes.
But it isn't an accurate answer. If a coach spends 100% of time in training working on passing, he values this more than defensive shape when not in possession.

There is a Gary Neville interview where he talks about the change in focus across his career. At the start of his career (I don't remember the exact numbers) 80% of time was spent on defending aspects. This gradually shifted across his career where at the end 80% of time was spent on work with the ball.

Where the time is spent indicates what aspect is valued. If Guardiolo spends his time in training working on passing and Popa spends it working on winning second balls, Popa cares more about winning second balls.
Click to expand...
I think I recall also listenning to that sometime back.
Also have listenned to other top players talking about the changes they go through as the game evolved.
From Neville's perspective absolutely, as did fergie the ol aggressive flat backline was a thing of the past, he ventured down his flank hence wingbacks style of its early days and ball retention.
He still won alot of 50's and would take on the outside mids and LB's but the style sure changed alot considering he started his Snr career way back in '92 < compare the game then to when he retired 2011.
Agree.
Where the time is spent is on your strength and weakness's obviously and who your up against you adjust your play, pretty normal of the modern game.
All I'm saying what Poppa is doing isn't new age stuff, I recall and we have on record on 442 how many complained of Arnie's defensive game plans and holding back me incl.
Winning 50's when lacking possession is a huge bonus.
Poppa is not much different just that we're going through a course of different players, some starting to perform some not.
Why Arnie's and Poppa's tactics - well that comes down to knowing your players and they know we get outplayed by the likes of Jap and similar so stout defensive is our attacking weapon and yes D defense is the key to winning games.
 
Decentric said:
In Scotland as a second ball league, where movement off the ball is less than ideal, better movement to support the ball carrier isn’t valued to the same extent.

In Scotland winning second balls and 1 v1 physical clashes are paramount - which isn’t as valued in more technical leagues.

Conversely, Scottish players’ skill sets won’t be as attractive for more technical leagues to recruit Scots.
Click to expand...
So KNVB coached Australian players would be miles ahead technically and, because you claim Scottish football doesn't value movement off the ball they DON'T get a chance to shine and thus progress their carreers elswhere? Thats an odd take?

What has this got to do with the popularity of football in Australia also?
 
Decentric said:
Good point.

Close proximity to England. Easy access for scouts. 20 Scots playing in the EPL is a decent number.

Then again that Ireland and Wales have more players, two smaller countries, is slight cause for concern.

Moreover, the EPL isn't the epicentre of world football like many in England think. There are 4 other quality leagues in the UEFA Big Five, plus Argentina and Brazil. There are also 30-40 big clubs in the smaller UEFA leagues too who are high quality and have success in intra-continental football, including Celtic and Rangers.

Few Scots play outside the UK. However, there was a Scot playing for Italy's Bologna when I watched them recently.
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Six young Scottish lads play in Serie A i believe, including two who won the league with Napoli. McTominay and Billy Gilmour, both are starters.
 
20 epl players from scotland seems an overestimate unless you are counting academy players?

Looking at their xi verse greece it looks like they had 5 getting regular football in the big five, not 20 (mostly in italy)

certainly better than us! But of those players

Robertson left the spfl as a 20 year old
McTominay never played in the spfl
Adams never played in the spfl
Gilmour never played in the spfl
Christie played several years for celtic who do keep the ball on the deck

It definitely seems a tough place to go on to bigger things. I looked at their adult transfers compared to similar quality leagues and they were remarkably poor. I suspect this is explained by the gap in style where they are outliers in world football. A typical spfl game not involving the glasgow giants will have around 400-450 passes a game while most leagues of similar quality have around 600-700. Jumping up a level while learning a different style means you have to make two adjustments instead of one and if you are older, it is harder to adjust because the concrete has started to set.
 
Decentric said:
Good point.

Close proximity to England. Easy access for scouts. 20 Scots playing in the EPL is a decent number.

Then again that Ireland and Wales have more players, two smaller countries, is slight cause for concern.

Moreover, the EPL isn't the epicentre of world football like many in England think. There are 4 other quality leagues in the UEFA Big Five, plus Argentina and Brazil. There are also 30-40 big clubs in the smaller UEFA leagues too who are high quality and have success in intra-continental football, including Celtic and Rangers.

Few Scots play outside the UK. However, there was a Scot playing for Italy's Bologna when I watched them recently.
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32 Scots currently play abroad, many in the top 5 European leagues.
 
grazorblade said:
20 epl players from scotland seems an overestimate unless you are counting academy players?

Looking at their xi verse greece it looks like they had 5 getting regular football in the big five, not 20 (mostly in italy)

certainly better than us! But of those players

Robertson left the spfl as a 20 year old
McTominay never played in the spfl
Adams never played in the spfl
Gilmour never played in the spfl
Christie played several years for celtic who do keep the ball on the deck

It definitely seems a tough place to go on to bigger things. I looked at their adult transfers compared to similar quality leagues and they were remarkably poor. I suspect this is explained by the gap in style where they are outliers in world football. A typical spfl game not involving the glasgow giants will have around 400-450 passes a game while most leagues of similar quality have around 600-700. Jumping up a level while learning a different style means you have to make two adjustments instead of one and if you are older, it is harder to adjust because the concrete has started to set.
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Not an estimate. Fact.
 
grazorblade said:
Can you list them?
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There are actually more than 20:

Andrew Robertson Liverpool
Ryan Christie Bournemouth
Ben Doak Liverpool
Nathan Patterson Everton
Scott McKenna Nottingham Forest
John McGinn Aston Villa
Kieran Tierney Arsenal
Aaron Hickey Brentford
Ryan Fraser Newcastle United
James McArthur Crystal Palace
Tom Cairney Fulham
Matt Targett Newcastle United
Tino Livramento Newcastle United
Harrison Ashby Newcastle United
Harvey Barnes Newcastle United
Elliot Anderson Nottingham Forest
Justin Devenny Crystal Palace
Andre Irving West Ham
Archie Gray Tottenham
Harry Soutar Leicester City
Ben Nelson Leicester City
Cieran Slicker Ipswich Town
Cameron Burgess Ipswich Town
George Hirst Ipswich Town
Ryan Fraser Southampton
Ross Stewart Southampton

 
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