Green & Gold FC Podcast #4 - Are A-League Crowds on the Rise?

[Quicky]

thanks for your kind words

We would love to recruit more fans from each club. It has been difficult letting a league reddit know about this site though

How so?

 

[Decentric]

Playing in Europe does not make you a better club. There are clubs who play in Europe that would struggle in League 1.

The other fallacy is that if English football was so good then England would win everything. Not true because English leagues have foreign players. As a result, English international players might not be the ones making the headlines in these leagues. Not to mention that Southgate was a shit coach who tried to play boring football so he could win games 1-0.

The same argument could be made that if the A-League is such a high standard, why are the Socceroos so shit.

All of this does not distract from the fact that the Championship is a much higher level than A-league. If it was not, then we would see more and more Aus players make the move and cement places in the team. The Aussie centric view of the A-league is not doing the game any good. Football in Australia has been on a backward trajectory for some time, so it would be best that we take off the rose tinted glasses and be willing to accept the flaws, the more chance we have of actually moving forward.

I think you said that you have a current C Licence, Zimbos, on the first podcast. That content has derived from France, Netherlands, Spain and Germany. It is a semi-pro qualification.

From 2008 - 2014 FFA hammered home to coaches in Aus, through National Conferences, that the English were doing very little of what you did in your co urse in their coaching education. Overseas coaching luminaries from Netherlands and France politely laughed at England. The consensus was that Australia hadn't developed particularly from following an English pathway.

I can't remember if it was a FFA national conference or the C Licence, but videos were shown of an English lower league coach, John Sutton, coaching his team and giving them a half time address . I thought it was a comedy! It was like Mike Bassett, the comedy movie on an English coach. The coaches ( as well as John Sutton) insulted their players, swore at them, told them they weren't good enough, they were playing for their contracts next year, it was all their fault, they were useless, etc, etc!

The English coaches didn't seem to think it was incumbent on them to improve the team. It was all the players' fault! They just needed to recruit better players- job done.

There was nothing on game analysis and identifying where the football problems were occurring?.


Was it in Ball Possession? In which third of the pitch?

Was it Ball Possession Opposition? In which third of the pitch?

Was it in the Attacking or Defensive Transitions?

Whose job was it to organise the defensive shape and the less experienced players?

Who said what to whom to start the build ups in Attacking Transitions?

Our job in groups was to identify the football problems occurring in groups of 4, and present to the rest of the participants in the course.

These English Lower League ( 1 and 2) coaches would not even have got a job at all in the top contoeentnal leagues leagues 1, 2, 3 - and they were often unaccredited.

A few years ago when one watched the Championship, the play from most teams ( Raphael Benitez's team did it very well) didn't feature the same sophisticated patterns of playing out from the back through midfield, that AL teams attempted to do. The pundits stated one had to watch the EPL to see that sort of play - which would have been apparent in second divs in France, Spain, Netherlands and Germany.



If you've read the Simon Kuper books, coach education is far more highly valued on the continent. There are far more trained coaches in Portugal, Spain, Italy, Netherlands, Germany and France, per capita head of population than in England. It might be 5-10 times more accredited coaches on the continent than England?

I've spent time on a lot of football grounds in England, admittedly below pro level. The many coaches I've met, think they know a lot, all thought they could do a better job than whoever the current English coach was at the time - but virtually knew nothing.

Players who've left here and played for League One and League Two clubs, have posted training ground exercises from them that are simply archaic.

There is a Youtube Channel which shows what percentage of players playing domestic football in the UEFA Bog Five. England had only just over 30% of English nationals playing in the EPL! This is appalling that so many foreign players are taking virtually 70% of starting positions in their own domestic league!

Conversely, about 60% of starting players in France and Spain were domestic players eligible for their national team. Germany and Italy had over 40 to just over 50%.

Moreover, few English players play in the Big Five UEFA foreign leages too. Whereas France has heaps playing overseas in the other UEFA Big Five leagues as well as 60 % Frenchman playing in the French league. So in terms of cattle for the national team, France has nearly 3 times as many Big Five footballers as English players playing Big Five football. English national team selectors have far less players playing at Big Five standard than the continental Big Five leagues.

So the English bask in what they deem to be the success of their EPL - easily the richest league in the world. But how much of it is English?

Conversely, the French have arguably the lowest standard of the Big Five and supposedly had slipped below the Eredivisie recently, but the French have had the most recent sustained success over the last 20 years in international football of the UEFA Big Five national teams.

 

[Quicky]

Here is an a league redditors summary of macarthur

5 seasons of Macarthur FC

Disbanded their original active support before their first game and left them to rot in a corner off camera

Club shop broken into before it even opened

Charged $40 for junior tickets and over $50 for away fans despite paying $1 a year for Ctown stadium

Moved their season opener to Newcastle two days prior because they forgot to check the state of their pitch

Fought fascism against Sydney United

Sacked Dwight Yorke and his assistant whilst in transit

Terminated their striker and left him on the kerb outside team hotel in Adelaide hours before a game to book his own taxi and flight back to Syd the same weekend

Labelled a 'pub team' by the ex Man United star

Chairman's wife told supporters on the Bulls Facebook Fan Group to f off after losing to Wanderers

Bullpen shut down for remainder of last season after a dodgy rusted fence collapsed and has ceased to exist now leaving them as the only club without an active

Raided by SWAT over match fixing involving the captain taking orders from overseas criminal groups and bribing his teammates with money

FIFA transfer ban after being sued by Yorke and forced to pay him out

Wrong date on their 24/25 kit

CB mutually terminated after threatening to shoot and kill a cop after being booted from a nightclub

Captain leaves because of poor officiating and reportedly wasn't happy with the club releasing players in Jan transfer window

On top of all this, they have never attracted a crowd over 5126 outside of games against Wanderers and Sydney FC and don't look like doing so any time soon. Seriously credit to those who turn up and support this club but far out it looks like depression all round from a neutral perspective

Sterjovski isn't doing too bad with what he's got. The best thing about the club are some of its players. It's another team exposing young players to professional football. Thats it. The frachise should have been given to someone else.

It makes me want pro-rel more. More opportunities for young players. Let teams like McCarthur try to survive on merit.

 

[Decentric]

Sterjovski isn't doing too bad with what he's got. The best thing about the club are some of its players. It's another team exposing young players to professional football. Thats it. The frachise should have been given to someone else.

It makes me want pro-rel more. More opportunities for young players. Let teams like McCarthur try to survive on merit.

I think Sterj is doing very well with a young team!

 

[Decentric]

Here is an a league redditors summary of macarthur

5 seasons of Macarthur FC

Disbanded their original active support before their first game and left them to rot in a corner off camera

Club shop broken into before it even opened

Charged $40 for junior tickets and over $50 for away fans despite paying $1 a year for Ctown stadium

Moved their season opener to Newcastle two days prior because they forgot to check the state of their pitch

Fought fascism against Sydney United

Sacked Dwight Yorke and his assistant whilst in transit

Terminated their striker and left him on the kerb outside team hotel in Adelaide hours before a game to book his own taxi and flight back to Syd the same weekend

Labelled a 'pub team' by the ex Man United star

Chairman's wife told supporters on the Bulls Facebook Fan Group to f off after losing to Wanderers

Bullpen shut down for remainder of last season after a dodgy rusted fence collapsed and has ceased to exist now leaving them as the only club without an active

Raided by SWAT over match fixing involving the captain taking orders from overseas criminal groups and bribing his teammates with money

FIFA transfer ban after being sued by Yorke and forced to pay him out

Wrong date on their 24/25 kit

CB mutually terminated after threatening to shoot and kill a cop after being booted from a nightclub

Captain leaves because of poor officiating and reportedly wasn't happy with the club releasing players in Jan transfer window

On top of all this, they have never attracted a crowd over 5126 outside of games against Wanderers and Sydney FC and don't look like doing so any time soon. Seriously credit to those who turn up and support this club but far out it looks like depression all round from a neutral perspective

Wow!

 

[Pasquali]

How so?

They don't allow self promotion aka sharing the site

 

[Decentric]

The same argument could be made that if the A-League is such a high standard, why are the Socceroos so shit.

Disagree they are.

Finished 11th at last World Cup.

Asia has improved out of sight. Admittedly, Qatar and Indonesia have recruited a lot of European players, with nebulous ancestry

From the stuff you've learned in your coaching courses, through the development system in Aus, with players inculcated in a national team style, our players fit more comfortably into a national system/game plan with limited preparation, than many opposition teams who don't have a system.

Now we are seeing the kids aged 22 and under, who have had 10 years coaching in the new system, which you should be part of, we have a lot more quantity of quality.

It sounds like you did not undertake coach education in the old system prior to 2008. I did. We basically learned nothing in the old system. Coaching was ad hoc all over the country.

 

[grazorblade]

Disagree they are.

Finished 11th at last World Cup.

Asia has improved out of sight. Admittedly, Qatar and Indonesia have recruited a lot of European players, with nebulous ancestry

From the stuff you've learned in your coaching courses, through the development system in Aus, with players inculcated in a national team style, our players fit more comfortably into a national system/game plan with limited preparation, than many opposition teams who don't have a system.

Now we are seeing the kids aged 22 and under, who have had 10 years coaching in the new system, which you should be part of, we have a lot more quantity of quality.

It sounds like did not undertake coach education in the old system prior to 2008. I did. We basically learned nothing in the old system. Coaching was ad hoc all over the country.

it will be interesting to see how much a difference changing the coaching education will do, since it has come at a time where the a league has struggled to expand either in wages or number of professional clubs, the ais has shut down and the nyl hasn't been round for ages

Given how poor our pathways are, improving at all is an impressive feet and there does look like there is a modest uptick in quality of the youth we are producing, especially from those born 2003 onwards

 

[LFC]

it will be interesting to see how much a difference changing the coaching education will do, since it has come at a time where the a league has struggled to expand either in wages or number of professional clubs, the ais has shut down and the nyl hasn't been round for ages

Given how poor our pathways are, improving at all is an impressive feet and there does look like there is a modest uptick in quality of the youth we are producing, especially from those born 2003 onwards

Coaching direction is one piece of the puzzle though as we know, it takes all the planets to align being together.
The rose coloured glass's views keep coming for a long time but we're waiting and waiting.
Especially the coaching outlook whereas D express's like we're going so great there.
We finished 11th as D happily quotes but fell off the cliff since.
I see some good players but no world beaters IF I can express it this way.
Every team needs their "stars" let say 1 or 2, we have NO regular goal scorer ala Cahill, who is the rock/dynamo/ball player in the middle game to game.
Oh we got Souttar regular CB - and now we are trying GK after GK.
ATM we don't have the pathways synced as mentioned therefore we can only improve so few, till we have a system that opens up more spots, teams, the small qty needs ot be high quality looking ahead.
Will we be in a position in the future lets say talking NT vs Japan, match them all over the park and beat them very well showing we have stepped up.
Considering the leagues most of the Japs play in we are years OFF but for possibly one of those surprising off days we jag a draw let alone a win.
Thats the bar re Asia for starters.


haha sorry so much thread title are AL crowds on the up.
That they are I suspect, pity it is only so few (11license's) and no P/R.

 

[zimbos05]

I think you said that you have a current C Licence, Zimbos, on the first podcast. That content has derived from France, Netherlands, Spain and Germany. It is a semi-pro qualification.

From 2008 - 2014 FFA hammered home to coaches in Aus, through National Conferences, that the English were doing very little of what you did in your co urse in their coaching education. Overseas coaching luminaries from Netherlands and France politely laughed at England. The consensus was that Australia hadn't developed particularly from following an English pathway.

I can't remember if it was a FFA national conference or the C Licence, but videos were shown of an English lower league coach, John Sutton, coaching his team and giving them a half time address . I thought it was a comedy! It was like Mike Bassett, the comedy movie on an English coach. The coaches ( as well as John Sutton) insulted their players, swore at them, told them they weren't good enough, they were playing for their contracts next year, it was all their fault, they were useless, etc, etc!

The English coaches didn't seem to think it was incumbent on them to improve the team. It was all the players' fault! They just needed to recruit better players- job done.

There was nothing on game analysis and identifying where the football problems were occurring?.


Was it in Ball Possession? In which third of the pitch?

Was it Ball Possession Opposition? In which third of the pitch?

Was it in the Attacking or Defensive Transitions?

Whose job was it to organise the defensive shape and the less experienced players?

Who said what to whom to start the build ups in Attacking Transitions?

Our job in groups was to identify the football problems occurring in groups of 4, and present to the rest of the participants in the course.

These English Lower League ( 1 and 2) coaches would not even have got a job at all in the top contoeentnal leagues leagues 1, 2, 3 - and they were often unaccredited.

A few years ago when one watched the Championship, the play from most teams ( Raphael Benitez's team did it very well) didn't feature the same sophisticated patterns of playing out from the back through midfield, that AL teams attempted to do. The pundits stated one had to watch the EPL to see that sort of play - which would have been apparent in second divs in France, Spain, Netherlands and Germany.



If you've read the Simon Kuper books, coach education is far more highly valued on the continent. There are far more trained coaches in Portugal, Spain, Italy, Netherlands, Germany and France, per capita head of population than in England. It might be 5-10 times more accredited coaches on the continent than England?

I've spent time on a lot of football grounds in England, admittedly below pro level. The many coaches I've met, think they know a lot, all thought they could do a better job than whoever the current English coach was at the time - but virtually knew nothing.

Players who've left here and played for League One and League Two clubs, have posted training ground exercises from them that are simply archaic.

There is a Youtube Channel which shows what percentage of players playing domestic football in the UEFA Bog Five. England had only just over 30% of English nationals playing in the EPL! This is appalling that so many foreign players are taking virtually 70% of starting positions in their own domestic league!

Conversely, about 60% of starting players in France and Spain were domestic players eligible for their national team. Germany and Italy had over 40 to just over 50%.

Moreover, few English players play in the Big Five UEFA foreign leages too. Whereas France has heaps playing overseas in the other UEFA Big Five leagues as well as 60 % Frenchman playing in the French league. So in terms of cattle for the national team, France has nearly 3 times as many Big Five footballers as English players playing Big Five football. English national team selectors have far less players playing at Big Five standard than the continental Big Five leagues.

So the English bask in what they deem to be the success of their EPL - easily the richest league in the world. But how much of it is English?

Conversely, the French have arguably the lowest standard of the Big Five and supposedly had slipped below the Eredivisie recently, but the French have had the most recent sustained success over the last 20 years in international football of the UEFA Big Five national teams.

You've written a hell of a lot here but I'm not really sure I know the point you are making. Are you able to simplify this because I'm not sure if you are trying to make the point that our coaches are better qualified, or that English leagues are shit because they are coached poorly??

Disagree they are.

Finished 11th at last World Cup.

Asia has improved out of sight. Admittedly, Qatar and Indonesia have recruited a lot of European players, with nebulous ancestry

From the stuff you've learned in your coaching courses, through the development system in Aus, with players inculcated in a national team style, our players fit more comfortably into a national system/game plan with limited preparation, than many opposition teams who don't have a system.

Now we are seeing the kids aged 22 and under, who have had 10 years coaching in the new system, which you should be part of, we have a lot more quantity of quality.

It sounds like did not undertake coach education in the old system prior to 2008. I did. We basically learned nothing in the old system. Coaching was ad hoc all over the country.

By that logic, Morocco are 4th best team in the world.

You can disagree that they are, but their results of late suggest otherwise. Asia may have improved, but then that would suggest we have stagnated in our progress.

From what I am seeing in the system and at the club level, I don't think we are producing as many quality players as people like to think.

 

[Decentric]

You've written a hell of a lot here but I'm not really sure I know the point you are making. Are you able to simplify this because I'm not sure if you are trying to make the point that our coaches are better qualified, or that English leagues are shit because they are coached poorly??


By that logic, Morocco are 4th best team in the world.

You can disagree that they are, but their results of late suggest otherwise. Asia may have improved, but then that would suggest we have stagnated in our progress.

From what I am seeing in the system and at the club level, I don't think we are producing as many quality players as people like to think.

Yes.

I'm saying our coaches have better coach education than England. Our coach education is pretty well all derived from France, Netherlands, Spain and Germany.

Morocco did very well in the last World Cup to finish 4th - on the biggest stage.

If you contend that those young players aged 23 and under don't impress you, who have had 10 years of coaching in the NC, I'd like a chance to appear on the podcast and use specific players in detail, to elucidate how they are doing things previous gens weren't. I'll use football specific game based criteria to exemplify.

 

[Decentric]

You've written a hell of a lot here but I'm not really sure I know the point you are making. Are you able to simplify this because I'm not sure if you are trying to make the point that our coaches are better qualified, or that English leagues are shit because they are coached poorly??

The other point I'll make is that because so much of Australia is obsessed with English football, does not make it that good.

Much of the EPL isn't English.

70% of EPL players are not English.

Better trained UEFA Continental coaches have gone to England chasing the big money.

 

[grazorblade]

Yes.

I'm saying our coaches have better coach education than England. Our coach education is pretty well all derived from France, Netherlands, Spain and Germany.

Morocco did very well in the last World Cup to finish 4th - on the biggest stage.

If you contend that those young players aged 23 and under don't impress you, who have had 10 years of coaching in the NC, I'd like a chance to appear on the podcast and use specific players in detail, to elucidate how they are doing things previous gens weren't. I'll use football specific game based criteria to exemplify.

i imagine that depends on what you are comparing. We probably have better undergraduate education than the usa on average but don't have an mit, harvard etc

In England you can all do the free grassroots course online to compare with what we have for free and indeed, apart from superior CPR training, Australia is better.

But are their coach education for their tier 1 academies worse than ours? (tier 1 is not epl, that have a categorization system for their academies)

 

[zimbos05]

Yes.

I'm saying our coaches have better coach education than England. Our coach education is pretty well all derived from France, Netherlands, Spain and Germany.

Morocco did very well in the last World Cup to finish 4th - on the biggest stage.

If you contend that those young players aged 23 and under don't impress you, who have had 10 years of coaching in the NC, I'd like a chance to appear on the podcast and use specific players in detail, to elucidate how they are doing things previous gens weren't. I'll use football specific game based criteria to exemplify.

I'm going to disagree. Again, there are ways to calculate how good a system is and whether it is successful or not.

Having seen the inside of both the Australian and the English coaching system, we are not far ahead of them or better than them.

I never said that some of our players don't impress me. What I said was that we are not as good as you are making it out to be. Our Socceroos have not progressed as you are saying. England have made two finals in major competitions, with an English coach. Now, I get that he is shit, but if a shit coach can make two finals, then our "amazing" coaching system is actually quite messed up.

I work with players on a regular basis and I see the things they do. Every generation does things different from the one before, again, does not instantly make them better.

The other point I'll make is that because so much of Australia is obsessed with English football, does not make it that good.

Much of the EPL isn't English.

70% of EPL players are not English.

Better trained UEFA Continental coaches have gone to England chasing the big money.

The world is obsessed with English football, not just Australia. I don't think anyone is rushing and saying we should copy the English system.

The main point was that the A-league is not on the level of the Championship. It's a simple thing, not a complicated one arguing for following the English model.

It's perfectly normal to accept that our league is not at a certain level and it's fine to be at that level, for now. But we want to improve it so we have work to do. If we want to keep going, "nah, that's bullshit, the A-league is amazing", then fine, we just won't really achieve anything significant any time soon.

 

[LFC]

God damn you make sense zimbos 101#
Excellent outlook and agree everything you have said bang man bang on !

The rose tinted glass’s is a plenty here on our top flight and players for many here incl our coaching.
How can they not see this and especially the comment that every gen improves and plays differently and rightly so, we’d be even further back if not but overall we are miles behind re Asia for one.

 

[grazorblade]

God damn you make sense zimbos 101#
Excellent outlook and agree everything you have said bang man bang on !

The rose tinted glass’s is a plenty here on our top flight and players for many here incl our coaching.
How can they not see this and especially the comment that every gen improves and plays differently and rightly so, we’d be even further back if not but overall we are miles behind re Asia for one.

Decentric has a rosy outlook on our youth development but do we have rose tinted glasses as a fan base?
I tend to think optimists get a harsher reaction than pessimists?

 

[Monoethnic Social Club]

I'm going to disagree. Again, there are ways to calculate how good a system is and whether it is successful or not.

Having seen the inside of both the Australian and the English coaching system, we are not far ahead of them or better than them.

I never said that some of our players don't impress me. What I said was that we are not as good as you are making it out to be. Our Socceroos have not progressed as you are saying. England have made two finals in major competitions, with an English coach. Now, I get that he is shit, but if a shit coach can make two finals, then our "amazing" coaching system is actually quite messed up.

I work with players on a regular basis and I see the things they do. Every generation does things different from the one before, again, does not instantly make them better.


The world is obsessed with English football, not just Australia. I don't think anyone is rushing and saying we should copy the English system.

The main point was that the A-league is not on the level of the Championship. It's a simple thing, not a complicated one arguing for following the English model.

It's perfectly normal to accept that our league is not at a certain level and it's fine to be at that level, for now. But we want to improve it so we have work to do. If we want to keep going, "nah, that's bullshit, the A-league is amazing", then fine, we just won't really achieve anything significant any time soon.

Fantastic post Zimbos .... well said.

 

[Monoethnic Social Club]

Decentric has a rosy outlook on our youth development but do we have rose tinted glasses as a fan base?
I tend to think optimists get a harsher reaction than pessimists?

Yeah thats also a fair point Grazor.... Im a believer in "tough love" sometimes though... Cant fix an issue if you aren't even brave enough to address it first.

 

[LFC]

Just enjoying to expand here on the topic some may think I'm talking through my rose coloured arse and we've all gone through this again and again because nothing actually changes.

Realists is a better description Grazor from my perspective playing and watching football like most of us see what we see and what out NT have delivered past to present.
That’s the reality.
I don't quote having a license or care for stats until post games and the typical armchair passionate frustrated critic who luvs our badge like alll of us and read from more informed than me on here and back in 442.
People like zimbos make sense to me (the Arthurs of the past and others actively involved) unlike some dressing up a pig is still a pig.

Nothing is proven on the park out there in the real world but talk/stats etcetc none of it of recent times is showing on the park we are breeding higher quality players required today that is rule101#. (there are the exceptions)
We are developing good players no more no less.
After all this time (20+yrs) we still haven't unerathed a goal scorer with all this wonderful new intel going through our wonderful approach of coaching nor have we unearthed players the calibre of Mooy/Rogic imo - where is the dominating creative midfielder or DM, well rounded BPO robots - I get we need these type of "workers" thats what I call them but thats the prob, thats what we seem to be developing and it shows where most are playing in euro league levels for staying here is NOT the answer, less games, its soft, not enough competition as it presently is.

I have watched many a NPL/Youth top level games and hear the coach's of retaining possession/reset, heck the forward gets towards the box and instead of taking on the last man or release the trigger turns to release the ball sideways or back, you just shake your head in opportunity lost for the kid gets frowned upon either wasted chance/wrong decision or a ball hog or waster.
For all the wonderful work spent on analysis comparing last gens and leagues and the 02 born onwards look out here they come means nothing till runs are on the board - reality.
Everything can look or be painted pretty but results is what matters full stop, that is the name of the game, pro sport.
Till a U23 or under olyroos squad sweep the board through a tournament with a core that show wow now that’s something showing results that’s real no other way to paint it.
Oh we are getting there just wait till these guys get into their mid 20's ? yer there are countless other spanish/french/cros/portugese/africans you name it already there and U21 playing top flight football.
For the negative mentions re the UK gets re youth - hello EPL Clubs even though buying euro players to fill the need of staying in the top flight there is heaps of academy players getting game time in Cup games and league games from the bench.
Only have to look at LFC the last 10yrs, look at Spain, Portugal.
All the above have thousands to select from %'s rule.
The current 3Lions as zimbos mentioned has made a couple of finals in recent times, check the youth in those squads.

We don’t have copious amounts of players developing for selection for we only have 11 pro clubs and not having open competition means %'s don't rule but scraps (limited numbers) therefore the pressure is enormous to make inroads.
We have our fellow Asian opponents far ahead of us - we struggle against eveyone of them nowadays.

This last paragraph by zimbos decribes where we are at period ! :
"It's perfectly normal to accept that our league is not at a certain level and it's fine to be at that level, for now. But we want to improve it so we have work to do. If we want to keep going, "nah, that's bullshit, the A-league is amazing", then fine, we just won't really achieve anything significant any time soon."

I shake my head some posters posts belittling the past and the core/main feeder of the game, without it we haven't got much, no got nothing whatsoever but a skeleton.
Its either the very very very long road that we keep staying in or shorten it some by getting behind what does feed the misaligned system.
This will increase our %'s rules having more choices, more competition.


Pessimist optimist ? either side cops flak same as reality but good to dicuss amongst us.