Welcome!

By registering with us, you'll be able to discuss, share and private message with other members of our community.

Sign Up Now!

♔ ♕ ♚ ♛ Australia U17/U20/U23 National Team Tournaments & Discussion Thread ♔ ♕ ♚ ♛

grazorblade said:
I'm aware of the argument I just think they are wrong to apply that to australia

you can have academies focusing on imparting skills and have youth tournaments be all about results without hurting players. The benefits for focusing on results for 12 games in a players life surely way outweigh the costs

Benefits
- better transfer money for clubs
- more likely to get scouted
- learn the competitive side and ruthless side of the game sooner
- more coverage of the domestic game

Costs
- 12 games in a youth's life where they are focusing on results rather than performance
Click to expand...
I agree that this approach is not fit for purpose.

Positive performances at youth level would inject mainstream interest and momentum into the domestic game. Market share and resource competition are not concerns for football in the Netherlands and it is clear that the Dutch Mafia failed to understand the unique sporting landscape in Australia.

However, preparation for these tournaments begins many years in advance and is inherently linked with talent identification. I'm sure that all the teams we send to tournaments are there to win; they just lack the ability to do so as a result of a system which prioritises skill development.

For example, our junior teams are usually miles off athletically when compared to the elite European, South American, and African nations we used to run into at these tournaments (see the 6-0 loss to Nigeria u17 in 2015).
 
Keeper66 said:
Developing the skills in players to succeed at senior level and achieving results at underage levels aren’t mutually exclusiv
Click to expand...

They aren't, but the focus on the skills to succeed at senior level have been deemed paramount.

In National Conferences there have been plenty of AL coaches, AL assistant coaches, NPL Tech Dirs, NPL senior coaches, NTC coaches, SAP coaches, state rep coaches who have all bought into the development being paramount notion. There were certainly no dissenting voices.

Ex Socceroos, like Alistair Edwards, and former Young Socceroos captain, Kurt Reynolds, have taken the floor in National Conferences to endorse this strategy.

I reiterate, the supposed GGs in the NSL era were deemed to be match ready for tournaments, but often many didn't develop adequately as adult players. I remember one team only had Josh Kennedy and Scott McDonald, and one other, whose name I can't remember, who went on to have successful pro careers from a successful Aus team in an u20 World Cup.

I know you've been part of the coaching pathway, Keeper. I'm not sure how far you've gone? Have you attended FFA or FA National Conferences 2011, 2012, 2013 onwards?
 
Total Football said:
I agree that this approach is not fit for purpose.

Positive performances at youth level would inject mainstream interest and momentum into the domestic game. Market share and resource competition are not concerns for football in the Netherlands and it is clear that the Dutch Mafia failed to understand the unique sporting landscape in Australia.

However, preparation for these tournaments begins many years in advance and is inherently linked with talent identification. I'm sure that all the teams we send to tournaments are there to win; they just lack the ability to do so as a result of a system which prioritises skill development.

For example, our junior teams are usually miles off athletically when compared to the elite European, South American, and African nations we used to run into at these tournaments (see the 6-0 loss to Nigeria u17 in 2015).
Click to expand...
if you focus on athletically catching up you might bump into some uglier tradeoffs than what I'm suggesting since that would be a longer commitment to prioritize physical development over technical. I'm suggesting just for these tournaments push for results (that might include selecting players who are the best now rather than ones with the best potential due to their technical base)
 
grazorblade said:
if you focus on athletically catching up you might bump into some uglier tradeoffs than what I'm suggesting since that would be a longer commitment to prioritize physical development over technical. I'm suggesting just for these tournaments push for results (that might include selecting players who are the best now rather than ones with the best potential due to their technical base)
Click to expand...
Yes, I see your point. It's a good one.
 
grazorblade said:
could be the case. By the time you get to u20 the world cup is dominated by your powerhouses

By contrast Nigeria dominates u17
Click to expand...
Another issue that Han Berger and Ali Edwards have elucidated is overage cheating in underage tournaments. According to them it is rife.

The latter has asked National Conference participants to look it up on the internet. Apparently, there is a lot written about it. Plus in some cases in some countries it has been hard to determine how old some players are?

Your point is a good one above, Grazor. As the players age, the powerhouses tend to dominate. I don' t have data in front of me, but I can remember that I've seen figures that Argentina has done well in U20s, U23s.

FFA deemed powerhouses to be Germany, Netherlands, Italy, Spain, France, Argentina, Brazil and Uruguay. Using the same three criteria as FFA, England, Portugal, possibly Croatia and Switzerland, could now also be considered powerhouses.
 
Total Football said:
One of the things I've liked about this current group is that they seem very physical compared to previous generations. Daniel Bennie in particular looks to have all the physical traits required to make it at the elite level.
Click to expand...
This also comes up a lot.

The intensity of the EPL is such, that players wear out more quickly, or, are so tired from the intensity and fast pace of the EPL, that they are often jaded for international fixtures.

Gerard Pique, claimed after playing in England, the intensity is much higher than in Spain week in and week out. Vince Grella and Zelco Kalaz have also pontificated on this comparing the EPL to Serie A.

In terms of sprinting over the 90 minutes, there is far more done in the EPL than the others in the UEFA Big Five. When Aime Jacquet visited Aus, the former French TD and World Cup winning coach, stated the athleticism required for England was greater, but the technical and tactical acumen was less. It has changed now, because there are so many quality technicians playing EPL now from overseas.

I'm envious because I have not seen any of the full games of the u20s. But Bennie's athleticism may be paramount for Champ and EPL, but not France, Portugal, Italy, Netherlands, Belgium, Germany and Spain,to the same extent.
 
Quicky said:
It's one thing dwelling on the result, it's another thing to dismiss them as unimportant and not take them seriously. I don't see developing players to senior level and taking tournaments seriously as mutually exclusive. Why can't you do both? Was that addressed at all?
Click to expand...

No.

The results become increasingly important as players age. Hence, under 23s are given greater weighting for their results than U20s and U17s. The Olympic qualifiers are considered to be important results wise.

What the new regime have wanted to establish is that the old axiom of citing Aus success because of the youth teams going far in a few WC tournaments in the NSL era, is flawed criteria to determine success. Of paramount importance was that Aus had failed to qualify for a World Cup at senior level for 32 years.

It can be pointed out Aus had a difficult pathway to qualify for senior World Cups, which is true.

However Aus was knocked out by Iran in 1997, and I think the Kiwis in 1982?

Israel also knocked us out in 1988 - I think?

The Argentinian team that knocked us out in 1994 wasn't that good either. They were lucky.

So the point was pushed by Berger, Edwards, Rob Baan, et al, that those unsuccessful Socceroo senior WC qualifying results over 32 years were detrimental to the game's development in Aus - because at senior level results ARE paramount.
 
grazorblade said:
I'm aware of the argument I just think they are wrong to apply that to australia

you can have academies focusing on imparting skills and have youth tournaments be all about results without hurting players. The benefits for focusing on results for 12 games in a players life surely way outweigh the costs

Benefits
- better transfer money for clubs
- more likely to get scouted
- learn the competitive side and ruthless side of the game sooner
- more coverage of the domestic game

Costs
- 12 games in a youth's life where they are focusing on results rather than performance
Click to expand...

I want to keep to a short post.

When I was coaching underage rep teams as feeders to the state team, one coach, X, who had great success, was castigated by the Tas men's NTC coach, and the state TD, for being exclusively results focused.

X was castigated because he was deviating from the NC - in trying to play a national style - based on 7 World powerhouses. They had a very good keeper. They played hoofball, which is easier to win doing it at this age, but isn't beneficial long term.

At the National Conferences FFA laid out from appraising the 2010 and 2014 World Cups of the characteristics of the successful teams - all were proficient at playing out from the back under significant Pressing pressure in limited time and space. The FIFA Tech Dept analysed every one of the 32 teams and it was shown on a big screen.

Aus had improved in 2014, but were still way behind the better nations. It was also decreed that the only way to achieve this level of success of the powerhouses is to try and play like them. And that it is a long, hard slog. Japan are making decent progress in this pursuit.

Rep coach X wasn't developing the type of players wanted by the FFA Tech Dept. All over the country, Berger, castigated coaches playing hoofball at rep level for short term results. If they kept hoofball up, they were sacked.
 
Decentric said:
I want to keep to a short post.

When I was coaching underage rep teams as feeders to the state team, one coach, X, who had great success, was castigated by the Tas men's NTC coach, and the state TD, for being exclusively results focused.

X was castigated because he was deviating from the NC - in trying to play a national style - based on 7 World powerhouses. They had a very good keeper. They played hoofball, which is easier to win doing it at this age, but isn't beneficial long term.

At the National Conferences FFA laid out from appraising the 2010 and 2014 World Cups of the characteristics of the successful teams - all were proficient at playing out from the back under significant Pressing pressure in limited time and space. The FIFA Tech Dept analysed every one of the 32 teams and it was shown on a big screen.

Aus had improved in 2014, but were still way behind the better nations. It was also decreed that the only way to achieve this level of success of the powerhouses is to try and play like them. And that it is a long, hard slog. Japan are making decent progress in this pursuit.

Rep coach X wasn't developing the type of players wanted by the FFA Tech Dept. All over the country, Berger, castigated coaches playing hoofball at rep level for short term results. If they kept hoofball up, they were sacked.
Click to expand...
I don't see how that disagrees with what I said?
 
@Decentric thanks for the essay! Great reading your thoughts to which I mostly concur.

Regarding team selection as I stated, some players may not have been released by their clubs e.g., Schreiber because at the time Leckie was still out and they only had Ugarcovic & Schreiber for the midfield.

Regarding Bennie, when he left he was a mere blade of grass. Now you would think that he was being coached by James Hird circa 2013. Even though he has physically bulked he has not lost his speed and is a lot more confident. His skills have also improved.

In general terms, it is true that promising 15 year olds do not develop into professional 21 year olds. Too many variables including DNA. Heck, when I was 14 I was second tallest in my class and that was the last time I grew - two years later I was the second shortest by a hair's breadth.

I have read that in England, foot skills are paramount by the time they reach 14 because it is much harder to teach or correct foot skills after that.

Do results matter? Yes they do. They give confidence to the player, provide motivation and give fans something to cheer. Should it matter to the coaching hierarchy? Not as much. Their task is to analyse the players' game when off the ball, when on the ball, communication skills, etc. As an analogy is like watching Australian Idol or The Voice where the judges do a lot of acting and watching a classical music competition where the judges look like angry snipers not moving a muscle. As a fan, I am the former but the coaches have to be the latter.
 
Finally got to watch the game against China. Australia dominated the first half with good positioning, slick passing and Bennie being an outstanding captain. The second half, Australia faded and China stepped up their game. Australia got very lucky in that China should have scored twice. Still can't believe they missed.

Most players played well. However, I felt that Yull was not effective and I would have replaced him at half-time. Pearman had his moments but he was inconsistent.
 
The fact that we haven’t qualified for an under 20 world since 2013 should mean that qualifying is improtant.

We can’t underestimate the importance of exposure that young players will get against some of the best young players in the world and it’s something that’s been missing for young players here.

The results are a bonus once your in a World Cup but the exposure is more valuable.
 
Can't remember us being so dominate in our games, they are still young so prone to mistakes. Defensively we still look a bit fragile but hopefully that improves with more time together in the tourney.

But we have good mix of technical players with athletic traits. One more win and we go to the WC come on boys!
 
Last edited:
Barca4life said:
Off topic for a bit but I read the presser from FA today (confusing as it sounds) but it looks they going to bring a new youth competition or tournament maybe to replace the national youth league?

It’s called the Emerging Socceroos Championship, interesting development.
Click to expand...
it's just a new name for the NYC (national youth championships)
 
Barca4life said:
Off topic for a bit but I read the presser from FA today (confusing as it sounds) but it looks they going to bring a new youth competition or tournament maybe to replace the national youth league?

It’s called the Emerging Socceroos Championship, interesting development.
Click to expand...
so its different from the nyl?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top