Best overseas leagues for Aussies?

[Cunningstunt]

The NSL (before you started following sockah) and the associated junior/youth development system of that era was run on the smell of an oily rag but managed to deliver top shelf world class players to top 5 euro leagues.

Clueless old codger still trying to justify his certificate of participation at some hick coaching course delivered by some dope with a dutch accent.

Your delusion remains next level.

To be fair there was the AIS which provided funding. A lot of the gg went through there with Ron Smith and Steve O'Connor from memory.

The level to make it in a top 5 league in the late 90s into 2000s was lower. Australia was one of the first of the new talent pools to get an opportunity, but as a lot of the rest of the world got involved, the amount of talent pushed us further down.

This was always going to happen but the shock of the transition from the NSL into the aleague and the loss of federal funding magnified the drop off.

 

[grazorblade]

To be fair there was the AIS which provided funding. A lot of the gg went through there with Ron Smith and Steve O'Connor from memory.

The level to make it in a top 5 league in the late 90s into 2000s was lower. Australia was one of the first of the new talent pools to get an opportunity, but as a lot of the rest of the world got involved, the amount of talent pushed us further down.

This was always going to happen but the shock of the transition from the NSL into the aleague and the loss of federal funding magnified the drop off.

having no underage teams in the a league and no nyl for most of the a league probably didn't help either. We have fixed the former problem, yet to fix the latter...

 

[LFC]

What is fixed Graz ?
That AL teams are playing in npl but are complete orphans and were forced pushed in divisions but not earnt ?
Is that what I understand your saying is fixed ?

 

[grazorblade]

What is fixed Graz ?
That AL teams are playing in npl but are complete orphans and were forced pushed in divisions but not earnt ?
Is that what I understand your saying is fixed ?

no I mean they have under age teams, (u13s etc) although I don't have a full list of how far each club goes down

 

[Cunningstunt]

no I mean they have under age teams, (u13s etc) although I don't have a full list of how far each club goes down

Sydney clubs go to 13s, do you want rep teams for kids under 12, I don't know the best age to start them. I think the current system actually works quite well. One of the reasons we are getting better youngsters coming in. It is economical to have teams play within the state and they play against men for the full npl season. The problem was it took over 10 years to implement those pathways. That is a lot of wasted talent.

Wsw and Sydney fc both earned promotion from npl 2, there may have been something funny with Macarthur and ccm? I'm not sure. It seems to be working similar to Holland, Germany or Spain, just not professional.

 

[grazorblade]

Sydney clubs go to 13s, do you want rep teams for kids under 12, I don't know the best age to start them. I think the current system actually works quite well. One of the reasons we are getting better youngsters coming in. It is economical to have teams play within the state and they play against men for the full npl season. The problem was it took over 10 years to implement those pathways. That is a lot of wasted talent.

Wsw and Sydney fc both earned promotion from npl 2, there may have been something funny with Macarthur and ccm? I'm not sure. It seems to be working similar to Holland, Germany or Spain, just not professional.

I would like a league clubs to coach kids during the SAP phase to be honest, even if you coach a bunch of teams rather than have a rep team

 

[DandyCasey]

A lack of a comfortable domestic safety net wage in your country of birth is a good top 5 league perseverance/motivator.

 

[Cunningstunt]

You make some very good points, my concern comes down to who advises these moves? as a midfielder in the a-league your biggest issue moving to a bigger league is adjusting to the speed of play, learning to play in tight areas, less time on the ball, more professional environment (pro/rel).

As a midfielder in one of the lower teams in the SPFL you are not going to improve these aspects, most of the time you may improve ball winning ability and increase work rate/stamina - but I would argue these are not traits aussies struggle with, they need to go learn how to dictate a game with tempo, how to retain possession better, how to play forward passes into dangerous areas, etc. You just wont get this at a mid table SPFL team. You will be expected to fight for every point sit deep, defend, defend and defend.

I expect Nisbet to hit the ground running in Holland. Much better place for him.

One interesting thing pointed out to me, the top kids coming through don't actually get a lot of OOP practice and almost never have to sit back and defend until they play against men. These kids play in teams that dominate matches with other talented kids as team mates. So they have far more experience controlling games and being on the ball, less so with defending. They also are rarely likely to experience another team trying to press them hard in their own half.

I think the lack of defence in the a league as the league has got younger and the subsequent gaps in players development (see Irankunda, Kuol, even back to Arzani as examples) when they head overseas at a young age might speak to this.

 

[Monoethnic Social Club]

Aussies are being coached in a similar way to France, Netherlands, Spain, Germany, Belgium - but they are first world football nations.

They have no competition from Aussie Rules, union, cricket, league, etc, to suck up resources. Actually France has decent league and union teams, but football gets front, middle and back of the sports page media coverage in the aforementioned. Football also gets the lion's share of corporate support and usually has access to the top athletes.

Conversely, in Aus there is virtually no mainstream media coverage and football is starved of funds or corporate sponsorship. Plus many talented athletes play other sports in Aus.

This doesnt make any sense though. If Aussie players are being coached in some sort of "worlds bets practice" then what difference does it make to these players individually what is or isnt reported in a newspaper or how many people watch AFL or one of the many rugbies?

Aren't they being sent overseas as the ultimate representation of your KNVB curriculum? Why are they NOT making any headway against players from "inferior" football methodologies?

 

[LFC]

This doesnt make any sense though. If Aussie players are being coached in some sort of "worlds bets practice" then what difference does it make to these players individually what is or isnt reported in a newspaper or how many people watch AFL or one of the many rugbies?

Aren't they being sent overseas as the ultimate representation of your KNVB curriculum? Why are they NOT making any headway against players from "inferior" football methodologies?

its like as if those countries mentioned have NO other sporting codes that takes talent away, suppose BB,Sking,ice hockey,tennis,volley ball,water polo etcetc don't compete let alone take away talented skilful possible footballers in spade loads and some resource.

 

[LFC]

One interesting thing pointed out to me, the top kids coming through don't actually get a lot of OOP practice and almost never have to sit back and defend until they play against men. These kids play in teams that dominate matches with other talented kids as team mates. So they have far more experience controlling games and being on the ball, less so with defending. They also are rarely likely to experience another team trying to press them hard in their own half.

I think the lack of defence in the a league as the league has got younger and the subsequent gaps in players development (see Irankunda, Kuol, even back to Arzani as examples) when they head overseas at a young age might speak to this.

CS, well isn't that we don't play enough games and not competitive enough as well, APL clubs have nurtured their Jnrs professionally with resource hence the Jnr's dominating games against who ? semi pro/amatuers, there is only 13 Pro clubs divide that by how MANY talented local NPL/SAP kids miss the boat not even being looked at.
So no its not working no where as good as it could be, infact we are allowing countless of them slip through the cracks to the other codes with more resource but more so not saying NO we can't fit you in.
Many promising kids who work their butts off get peeved off and may not go to other codes but accept playing with mates in Association Clubs or plod along in NPL1/2/3.
We could have such a large pool to work with.

 

[jas88]

One interesting thing pointed out to me, the top kids coming through don't actually get a lot of OOP practice and almost never have to sit back and defend until they play against men. These kids play in teams that dominate matches with other talented kids as team mates. So they have far more experience controlling games and being on the ball, less so with defending. They also are rarely likely to experience another team trying to press them hard in their own half.

I think this is where the European teams thrive in development being able to take kids put them in the 2nd team who might play in the 2nd/3rd division against actual men. I don't think putting the kids into the NSL will have the same intensity.. maybe once pro/rel takes off for the 2nd division.

 

[Barca4life]

its like as if those countries mentioned have NO other sporting codes that takes talent away, suppose BB,Sking,ice hockey,tennis,volley ball,water polo etcetc don't compete let alone take away talented skilful possible footballers in spade loads and some resource.

If it’s not like other countries around the world that excel in football don’t excel in other sports too.

France for example are excellent in basketball and have maybe the best generational prospect to ever play in Victor Wembanyama but also excel in other sports too but it’s not as known unlike their football stars who get a lot more coverage, and this gets hidden away when they have a higher population and less concentrated areas over us and we excel in almost the same sports as them.

For us we should be in a position where we should be a lot better in football due to the participation rate which is the highest out of any sport in the country to the point where the participation rate dwarfs over the like of the AFL and NRL who have less to work with but the leagues are a lot more influential.

Our issue is converting the participation base into larger interest and larger pathways, methodologies or not this is the main issue which the powers haven’t still solved yet!

 

[Barca4life]

I would like a league clubs to coach kids during the SAP phase to be honest, even if you coach a bunch of teams rather than have a rep team

Yep I don’t understand this either that aleague clubs can’t coach within the SAP phase, they got pre academy stuff but it’s not competitive.

 

[Monoethnic Social Club]

If it’s not like other countries around the world that excel in football don’t excel in other sports too.

France for example are excellent in basketball and have maybe the best generational prospect to ever play in Victor Wembanyama but also excel in other sports too but it’s not as known unlike their football stars who get a lot more coverage, and this gets hidden away when they have a higher population and less concentrated areas over us and we excel in almost the same sports as them.

For us we should be in a position where we should be a lot better in football due to the participation rate which is the highest out of any sport in the country to the point where the participation rate dwarfs over the like of the AFL and NRL who have less to work with but the leagues are a lot more influential.

Our issue is converting the participation base into larger interest and larger pathways, methodologies or not this is the main issue which the powers haven’t still solved yet!

EXACTAMUNDO!!!!!!!

 

[grazorblade]

This doesnt make any sense though. If Aussie players are being coached in some sort of "worlds bets practice" then what difference does it make to these players individually what is or isnt reported in a newspaper or how many people watch AFL or one of the many rugbies?

Aren't they being sent overseas as the ultimate representation of your KNVB curriculum? Why are they NOT making any headway against players from "inferior" football methodologies?

Wouldn't coaching education just be one small piece of the puzzle?

If you could produce super stars just by having a good coaching manual than American Samoa would quickly become a powerhouse

I've mostly looked at the 5-13 year old stuff since I have young kids and tend to sing its praises, the stuff that is after 13+ seems to be where most the controversy is with some describing at as inflexible. But the young stuff really does seem similar to what they do in france and different (way better imo) to what they have in england.

But Englands national team and France's aren't that different in quality so probably is only a small part of how to develop players

 

[grazorblade]

If it’s not like other countries around the world that excel in football don’t excel in other sports too.

France for example are excellent in basketball and have maybe the best generational prospect to ever play in Victor Wembanyama but also excel in other sports too but it’s not as known unlike their football stars who get a lot more coverage, and this gets hidden away when they have a higher population and less concentrated areas over us and we excel in almost the same sports as them.

For us we should be in a position where we should be a lot better in football due to the participation rate which is the highest out of any sport in the country to the point where the participation rate dwarfs over the like of the AFL and NRL who have less to work with but the leagues are a lot more influential.

Our issue is converting the participation base into larger interest and larger pathways, methodologies or not this is the main issue which the powers haven’t still solved yet!

In the UK 11.8-14million play football regularly compared to 7.5 million in france

This compares to 1.3 million in Australia (just counting players). In percentage terms France gets 11%, UK gets near 25% and we get 5%

We are actually a low participation country by football standards

 

[Monoethnic Social Club]

Wouldn't coaching education just be one small piece of the puzzle?

If you could produce super stars just by having a good coaching manual than American Samoa would quickly become a powerhouse

I've mostly looked at the 5-13 year old stuff since I have young kids and tend to sing its praises, the stuff that is after 13+ seems to be where most the controversy is with some describing at as inflexible. But the young stuff really does seem similar to what they do in france and different (way better imo) to what they have in england.

But Englands national team and France's aren't that different in quality so probably is only a small part of how to develop players

Aha........

 

[Monoethnic Social Club]

In the UK 11.8-14million play football regularly compared to 7.5 million in france

This compares to 1.3 million in Australia (just counting players). In percentage terms France gets 11%, UK gets near 25% and we get 5%

We are actually a low participation country by football standards

And a MASSIVE participation country when compared to population of countries ABOVE us in FIFA rankings...

 

[grazorblade]

And a MASSIVE participation country when compared to population of countries ABOVE us in FIFA rankings...

I think Uruguay would be the only country in that category?

I think the fraction of participants matters, not just total participants

If a high enough fraction are playing the game then it becomes default for people to bring a football to neighbourly get togethers