Expansion Thread

[Monoethnic Social Club]

My main concern is that the FA will just expand but to what benefit. When you start to disperse what little talent we have, we end up in situations where teams are woefully OP compared to others. Promotion and Relegation is of no benefit to potential owners of Aus teams. They would not be earning the money in a second division as they would in the A-league. There is no ROI for any potential owners.

We need to sure up our current league to ensure it is competitive enough before we can consider adding in P/R.

Why? I still don't understand why the financial gains or losses of a bunch of foreigners has ANYTHING to do with Australian football clubs arranging themselves into a proper league pyramid? Its never going to include the franchsie league... so be it., why hold back the 99% of football in Australia because of the whims of a bunch of blowins?

 

[Monoethnic Social Club]

correct !
zimbos - your looking at the game through APL eyes and BR.
As soon as I saw you quoted ROI I'm not talking about APL, for me let them their own course good luck to it I'm more concerned beneath needs the massive shot in the arm the game needs, its in limbo !
We got bucket loads of talent beneath and as someguyfc says, shortage of opportunities !!!!
We need this 2nd level be it full pro or semi with better presentation, more professional, broadcasting, marketing, TD's looked after and then implement P/R down not going into APL.
Let this develop/grow and see what becomes later re APL if and when they get their shit together.
Heck it may NEVER see a future alliance/marriage in any case but we need to improve and get with the times for the massive participation below.

Amen.

 

[Sutherlandbear]

Why? I still don't understand why the financial gains or losses of a bunch of foreigners has ANYTHING to do with Australian football clubs arranging themselves into a proper league pyramid? Its never going to include the franchsie league... so be it., why hold back the 99% of football in Australia because of the whims of a bunch of blowins?

Maybe you can have a breakaway league, much like the Premier league. But is the hunger really there for the 99% ?

 

[grazorblade]

pyramids are how you get better, so waiting for the a league to get good enough before there is a pyramid is counter productive

even without p&r, the 2nd tier can consolidate the best npl talent, give them a year playing at a higher level, then the best of them can be bought by a league clubs for cheaper than journeyman foreigners. So even a disconnected pyramid helps

having said that, even without an nst, a league level players are league 1 level. That is pretty much the minimum standard you get by going full time pro and having underage juniors. Add in 5 foreigners and you can produce a league quality squads indefinitely. The challenge is going higher than a league quality....

 

[Frankly Speaking]

I am confident a Gold Coast team could average 7-8, based on GCU history before Miron and Palmer wrecked the joint. Cbus stadium with those kinds of numbers is fine. I don't know why some are so fixated on a smaller stadium. Cbus is a great venue, right on a train line.

A Gold Coast club would be a shot in the arm for the Roar. No talk about it happening though.

 

[zimbos05]

Why? I still don't understand why the financial gains or losses of a bunch of foreigners has ANYTHING to do with Australian football clubs arranging themselves into a proper league pyramid? Its never going to include the franchsie league... so be it., why hold back the 99% of football in Australia because of the whims of a bunch of blowins?

We don't have enough backers within Australia to expand to the way we want to. Football across the globe is moving to a more global model. If we try to keep everything in house, we won't really expand the leagues the way everyone is talking about. If you think the state bodies and the leagues will be able to organise themselves, then we are heading towards a regressive model.

correct !
zimbos - your looking at the game through APL eyes and BR.
As soon as I saw you quoted ROI I'm not talking about APL, for me let them their own course good luck to it I'm more concerned beneath needs the massive shot in the arm the game needs, its in limbo !
We got bucket loads of talent beneath and as someguyfc says, shortage of opportunities !!!!
We need this 2nd level be it full pro or semi with better presentation, more professional, broadcasting, marketing, TD's looked after and then implement P/R down not going into APL.
Let this develop/grow and see what becomes later re APL if and when they get their shit together.
Heck it may NEVER see a future alliance/marriage in any case but we need to improve and get with the times for the massive participation below.

Everyone has this ideal world of how football should be, but how many of us are actually involved at the local level? How many you on here take a full active approach with your NPL, FQPL etc clubs.

I agree with a lot of you in terms of expansion, but it can't be done in the wrong way. We don't have as much talent as everyone likes to think. We have talent, but not enough A-league level or what should be considered the top level. We also don't have as big enough footballing population to fill the stadiums we have. I think there are too many people who are concerned with the ideals of how good football is at the NPL level if you support a club, that we are not thinking about the sustainable structure at the top level.

 

[HappyGuus]

I am confident a Gold Coast team could average 7-8, based on GCU history before Miron and Palmer wrecked the joint. Cbus stadium with those kinds of numbers is fine. I don't know why some are so fixated on a smaller stadium. Cbus is a great venue, right on a train line.

A Gold Coast club would be a shot in the arm for the Roar. No talk about it happening though.

Gold Coast's population has increased by about 130,000 since then too.

Interesting reading their wiki, they have linked their history to a Gold Coast club formed in 1966!

 

[Frankly Speaking]

Gold Coast's population has increased by about 130,000 since then too.

Interesting reading their wiki, they have linked their history to a Gold Coast club formed in 1966!

I live in hope that this will happen before I exit this mortal coil.

 

[Frankly Speaking]

If we are using population as a criteria, Gold Coast is the next expansion club bu some distance. Canberra's next on current figures, but you would have to say that the growth rate of Sunshine Coast is significant, with 540,000 projected by 2046.

Gold Coast 666,087
Canberra 472,803
Sunshine Coast 365,942

So Gold Coast is roughly equivalent to a second club in either Adelaide or Perth and Brisbane is even better placed, population wise, for another club, but realistically is the public there for second clubs in any of these cities?

Plus new territories have added attractions for investors.

Three QLD clubs, all close enough for genuine derby effect and travelling fans is a tantalising proposition.

Conventional wisdom says that sports clubs die on the Gold Coast, but GCU was doing fine until Miron and Clive screwed the pooch, to borrow a phrase from The Right Stuff.

 

[patjennings]

TBH SE Queensland could be the sweet spot in years to come. Roar to a redeveloped Perry Park, a second 'Brisbane' team at North Ipswich Reserve, a Gold Coast team at Robina and a team on the Sunshine Coast

 

[grazorblade]

If we are using population as a criteria, Gold Coast is the next expansion club bu some distance. Canberra's next on current figures, but you would have to say that the growth rate of Sunshine Coast is significant, with 540,000 projected by 2046.

Gold Coast 666,087
Canberra 472,803
Sunshine Coast 365,942

So Gold Coast is roughly equivalent to a second club in either Adelaide or Perth and Brisbane is even better placed, population wise, for another club, but realistically is the public there for second clubs in any of these cities?

Plus new territories have added attractions for investors.

Three QLD clubs, all close enough for genuine derby effect and travelling fans is a tantalising proposition.

Conventional wisdom says that sports clubs die on the Gold Coast, but GCU was doing fine until Miron and Clive screwed the pooch, to borrow a phrase from The Right Stuff.

Thats pretty impressive growth for the gold coast.

The criteria for success has dropped since the goldie were last here. Back then a sub 10k crowd average for a club is shameful. Wun and macarthur has changed that haha

 

[nm.apia21]

canberra and wollongong should already have teams, gcu and townsville should still be in the league, south melbourne should've been the second melbourne team

then we would be looking at tasmania, sunshine coast, christchurch, darwin, a second team in perth/adl/bris and a third team in syd/melb

apl/ffa really messed around too much with expansion and management with the league

 

[grazorblade]

canberra and wollongong should already have teams, gcu and townsville should still be in the league, south melbourne should've been the second melbourne team

then we would be looking at tasmania, sunshine coast, christchurch, darwin, a second team in perth/adl/bris and a third team in syd/melb

apl/ffa really messed around too much with expansion and management with the league

should just keep trying expansions to see what sticks. If it works, great, if crowds are poor they can go down the the nst and try and grow there

 

[Ange's high line]

canberra and wollongong should already have teams, gcu and townsville should still be in the league, south melbourne should've been the second melbourne team

then we would be looking at tasmania, sunshine coast, christchurch, darwin, a second team in perth/adl/bris and a third team in syd/melb

apl/ffa really messed around too much with expansion and management with the league

Wollongong cannot attract investors or wealthy ownership. Watch how long it will take to get a new owner for the Mariners. Regional team fail financially in the long term in NSW.

 

[Frankly Speaking]

People can nominate likely expansion sites as much as they like. The money has to be there - a lot of money from seriously cashed up investors prepared to lose millions of dollars each year.

Unsurprisingly, they are hard to find. That's why there are no teams in the Gong, Canberra, Gold Coast etc (and forget Hobart - the state is bankrupting itself on the utter folly of the new AFL oval). If someone who fits these specs was looking at a new club, Gold Coast is by far the most attractive option. Bear in mind that Gold Coast also adds Tweed Heads and the Byron/Ballina region, which adds 67,000 and 86,000 (excluding Lismore which I think is too far away) respectively. So you could say that greater Gold Coast regional catchment for a club is 819,000 and growing fast.

Gold Coast really is a no brainer for the next club.

It would need to be positioned as a team that plays entertaining jogo bonito football to suit the climate and the Coast's entertainment focus, but it could be done. The stadium is already there, waiting.

 

[southoftheyarra]

We don't have enough backers within Australia to expand to the way we want to. Football across the globe is moving to a more global model. If we try to keep everything in house, we won't really expand the leagues the way everyone is talking about. If you think the state bodies and the leagues will be able to organise themselves, then we are heading towards a regressive model.



Everyone has this ideal world of how football should be, but how many of us are actually involved at the local level? How many you on here take a full active approach with your NPL, FQPL etc clubs.

I agree with a lot of you in terms of expansion, but it can't be done in the wrong way. We don't have as much talent as everyone likes to think. We have talent, but not enough A-league level or what should be considered the top level. We also don't have as big enough footballing population to fill the stadiums we have. I think there are too many people who are concerned with the ideals of how good football is at the NPL level if you support a club, that we are not thinking about the sustainable structure at the top level.

Tbh the A-League and NPL playing level had gotten thinner and thinner over the last couple of years (It won't anymore thanks to the u23 rules). There is a heap of talent (players and coaches) at the top NPL clubs around the country, I would think if given the opportunity to become more professional you would see a improvement in how they play considering they could actually train more than a couple times per week.

 

[patjennings]

Wollongong cannot attract investors or wealthy ownership. Watch how long it will take to get a new owner for the Mariners. Regional team fail financially in the long term in NSW.

All A League teams fail. Regional or not. The model is essentially flawed. What is needed either regional or urban is benevolent wealthy investors that will assist in the transformation away from the existing model to where they have ownership or at least control through a long term lease of a stadium to be able to capture match day income rather than just be responsible for match day expenditure. Add a social club and transfer income you can become viable. Sydney, WSW, City and Victory have the richest owners that can walk away at any moment and there really is no way to make them profitable. Those four plus Brisbane and Newcastle are no chance of ever controlling their current stadiums and so are beholden to always having rich owners so will never be sustainable

The more likely Australian AL clubs to be able to become viable (albeit with rich transformational benefactors) via controlling their stadiums and developing vibrant social clubs supplemented by transfer income are Adelaide, Mariners, Macarthur, Perth and Western United. Brisbane and Newcastle could join them - but not at their current stadiums as they are by no way the major tenant.

 

[Ange's high line]

All A League teams fail. Regional or not. The model is essentially flawed. What is needed either regional or urban is benevolent wealthy investors that will assist in the transformation away from the existing model to where they have ownership or at least control through a long term lease of a stadium to be able to capture match day income rather than just be responsible for match day expenditure. Add a social club and transfer income you can become viable. Sydney, WSW, City and Victory have the richest owners that can walk away at any moment and there really is no way to make them profitable. Those four plus Brisbane and Newcastle are no chance of ever controlling their current stadiums and so are beholden to always having rich owners so will never be sustainable

The more likely Australian AL clubs to be able to become viable (albeit with rich transformational benefactors) via controlling their stadiums and developing vibrant social clubs supplemented by transfer income are Adelaide, Mariners, Macarthur, Perth and Western United. Brisbane and Newcastle could join them - but not at their current stadiums as they are by no way the major tenant.

Well said but, these clubs won't ever fall in line with being the correct model. This sporting code is so fractured & divided that Mariners may not find an owner. Two or three clubs may fund them for two seasons although, they won't say it right now but Owners want something coming back they're way if they take ownership. These regionals don't offer much.

 

[Frankly Speaking]

Well said but, these clubs won't ever fall in line with being the correct model. This sporting code is so fractured & divided that Mariners may not find an owner. Two or three clubs may fund them for two seasons although, they won't say it right now but Owners want something coming back they're way if they take ownership. These regionals don't offer much.

Regrettably, when Charlesworth walks away, I believe CCM will cease to exist.

 

[patjennings]

Well said but, these clubs won't ever fall in line with being the correct model. This sporting code is so fractured & divided that Mariners may not find an owner. Two or three clubs may fund them for two seasons although, they won't say it right now but Owners want something coming back they're way if they take ownership. These regionals don't offer much.

Forget regionals - no clubs in Australia make money so by definition the owners are not getting anything back. The clubs I quoted have the chance to transition away from the flawed model. The big 4 less so - if they ever want a return it will be part of a South East Asian Super League along with Auckland FC..

The AL clubs need to get away from being rich people's playthings and in the interim that may mean a great deal of pain (and rich benefactors) - but in reality there are none are sustainable in the Australian environment under the current model - even the big 4. And how long would the big 4 last in the Australian environment just playing each other.

Radical surgery is needed - not just at the Mariners but around the country. The model was wrong at the beginning, the model is wrong 20 years later. You don't improve by continuing to do what has been failing for 20 years.