Expansion Thread

[Frankly Speaking]

Forget regionals - no clubs in Australia make money so by definition the owners are not getting anything back. The clubs I quoted have the chance to transition away from the flawed model. The big 4 less so - if they ever want a return it will be part of a South East Asian Super League along with Auckland FC..

The AL clubs need to get away from being rich people's playthings and in the interim that may mean a great deal of pain (and rich benefactors) - but in reality there are none are sustainable in the Australian environment under the current model - even the big 4. And how long would the big 4 last in the Australian environment just playing each other.

Radical surgery is needed - not just at the Mariners but around the country. The model was wrong at the beginning, the model is wrong 20 years later. You don't improve by continuing to do what has been failing for 20 years.

I think this argument contains some shades of grey. Some things have gone right. The clubs are old enough now to be city teams, not franchises. Attendances are still way up from the NSL. Adelaide, SFC, and Victory have clear identities are viable. Wanderers and Brisbane did have but there's much work to be done to get back to where they were. It is possible, though. We know the potential of Perth. Western United, much to my surprise, are on the way to making it work.

Unfortunately I think that the Mariners are on borrowed time. City are a genuine basket case - but they can be saved. It will take their own stadium and the regional identity that goes with it. Will that happen? Can't see it. If CFG lose interest, the club will fold - of that I am certain.

So I would not say the model is "wrong". I would say flawed and badly mismanaged. Tossing it is not an option. The only option is to build on what is in place.

There have been two issues from the outset: that the clubs were never adequately capitalised, and the lack of suitable home grounds. What turned the MLS around were clubs having home grounds. This situation where clubs share vast and always empty looking grounds with the rugby codes and rock concerts has done more damage to the competition than any other factor.

 

[Sutherlandbear]

I think this argument contains some shades of grey. Some things have gone right. The clubs are old enough now to be city teams, not franchises. Attendances are still way up from the NSL. Adelaide, SFC, and Victory have clear identities are viable. Wanderers and Brisbane did have but there's much work to be done to get back to where they were. It is possible, though. We know the potential of Perth. Western United, much to my surprise, are on the way to making it work.

Unfortunately I think that the Mariners are on borrowed time. City are a genuine basket case - but they can be saved. It will take their own stadium and the regional identity that goes with it. Will that happen? Can't see it. If CFG lose interest, the club will fold - of that I am certain.

So I would not say the model is "wrong". I would say flawed and badly mismanaged. Tossing it is not an option. The only option is to build on what is in place.

There have been two issues from the outset: that the clubs were never adequately capitalised, and the lack of suitable home grounds. What turned the MLS around were clubs having home grounds. This situation where clubs share vast and always empty looking grounds with the rugby codes and rock concerts has done more damage to the competition than any other factor.

And who built and paid for those home grounds, it certainly wasn't the clubs. All stadiums in America are built from tax payers money. Will not happen here.

 

[patjennings]

I think this argument contains some shades of grey. Some things have gone right. The clubs are old enough now to be city teams, not franchises. Attendances are still way up from the NSL. Adelaide, SFC, and Victory have clear identities are viable. Wanderers and Brisbane did have but there's much work to be done to get back to where they were. It is possible, though. We know the potential of Perth. Western United, much to my surprise, are on the way to making it work.

Unfortunately I think that the Mariners are on borrowed time. City are a genuine basket case - but they can be saved. It will take their own stadium and the regional identity that goes with it. Will that happen? Can't see it. If CFG lose interest, the club will fold - of that I am certain.

So I would not say the model is "wrong". I would say flawed and badly mismanaged. Tossing it is not an option. The only option is to build on what is in place.

There have been two issues from the outset: that the clubs were never adequately capitalised, and the lack of suitable home grounds. What turned the MLS around were clubs having home grounds. This situation where clubs share vast and always empty looking grounds with the rugby codes and rock concerts has done more damage to the competition than any other factor.

Adelaide have nearly folded a number of times. Aren't Victory caught up with the 777 bankruptcy and how long will the Russian Oligarch and his nephew keep funding Sydney.

I agree the clubs were never properly capitalised and I don't want to toss out everything. I want to build on what is there - but at best the current setup is just an ego trip for wealthy owners. The trick is how do you transform from where we are now to where we need to be.

As for the Mariners, given a new Council as opposed to the previous one and the administrator there are more than a handful of very rich local football advocates that have shown much more of interest with the administrator out of the way. Charlesworth I doubt will go anywhere. But his ownership percentage may be vastly reduced.

 

[Frankly Speaking]

Adelaide have nearly folded a number of times. Aren't Victory caught up with the 777 bankruptcy and how long will the Russian Oligarch and his nephew keep funding Sydney.

I agree the clubs were never properly capitalised and I don't want to toss out everything. I want to build on what is there - but at best the current setup is just an ego trip for wealthy owners. The trick is how do you transform from where we are now to where we need to be.

As for the Mariners, given a new Council as opposed to the previous one and the administrator there are more than a handful of very rich local football advocates that have shown much more of interest with the administrator out of the way. Charlesworth I doubt will go anywhere. But his ownership percentage may be vastly reduced.

Wouldn't it make such a difference if each "club" had an actual building, or a bar or SOMETHING that said they are an actual club with an identity? Like a real presence in their community?

The franchises, clubs, whatever we call them, have been unforgivably lazy with community engagement.

 

[patjennings]

Wouldn't it make such a difference if each "club" had an actual building, or a bar or SOMETHING that said they are an actual club with an identity? Like a real presence in their community?

The franchises, clubs, whatever we call them, have been unforgivably lazy with community engagement.

This is one of the things that has been blocked by the previous Central Coast Council and administrator

 

[CentreHalf]

I am confident a Gold Coast team could average 7-8, based on GCU history before Miron and Palmer wrecked the joint. Cbus stadium with those kinds of numbers is fine. I don't know why some are so fixated on a smaller stadium. Cbus is a great venue, right on a train line.

A Gold Coast club would be a shot in the arm for the Roar. No talk about it happening though.

WOuld the current gold coast united club be able to be involved? They look like they are flying.

 

[patjennings]

And who built and paid for those home grounds, it certainly wasn't the clubs. All stadiums in America are built from tax payers money. Will not happen here.

I'm not sure on up to date figures but 6 or 7 years ago there was only one fully funded public stadium - Toyota Park. There were four paid for by the clubs or owners and the rest were a combination of public/private funding.

 

[Monoethnic Social Club]

Maybe you can have a breakaway league, much like the Premier league. But is the hunger really there for the 99% ?

I honestly don't know... 30-40 odd clubs got together to at least talk about it so there must be some desire?

 

[Monoethnic Social Club]

We don't have enough backers within Australia to expand to the way we want to. Football across the globe is moving to a more global model. If we try to keep everything in house, we won't really expand the leagues the way everyone is talking about. If you think the state bodies and the leagues will be able to organise themselves, then we are heading towards a regressive model.

We ONLY need financial backers to expand they way the APL wants... not what 99% of football does... there IS a difference.

Everyone has this ideal world of how football should be, but how many of us are actually involved at the local level? How many you on here take a full active approach with your NPL, FQPL etc clubs.

I agree with a lot of you in terms of expansion, but it can't be done in the wrong way. We don't have as much talent as everyone likes to think. We have talent, but not enough A-league level or what should be considered the top level. We also don't have as big enough footballing population to fill the stadiums we have. I think there are too many people who are concerned with the ideals of how good football is at the NPL level if you support a club, that we are not thinking about the sustainable structure at the top level.

Actual footballing talent will only get better over time if there ARE more clubs though... You cant possible increase the playing pool when they don't have anywhere to play.... surely?

 

[Monoethnic Social Club]

should just keep trying expansions to see what sticks. If it works, great, if crowds are poor they can go down the the nst and try and grow there

Sorry mate, the NST cannot be a franchise retirement home if it is to have any chance of success.

 

[Monoethnic Social Club]

Wouldn't it make such a difference if each "club" had an actual building, or a bar or SOMETHING that said they are an actual club with an identity? Like a real presence in their community?

The franchises, clubs, whatever we call them, have been unforgivably lazy with community engagement.

its a bit hard to "engage" with a community you see as simply a customer .....

 

[zimbos05]

We ONLY need financial backers to expand they way the APL wants... not what 99% of football does... there IS a difference.

That's short term thinking. We need to consider long term viability.

Actual footballing talent will only get better over time if there ARE more clubs though... You cant possible increase the playing pool when they don't have anywhere to play.... surely?

If that was the case, then there would be an overflow of talent knocking down A-league club doors. That isn't happening. Extra A-league clubs means drawing from NPL playing pools. Those clubs then need to draw from their younger base and if you have younger players moving up too quickly, you stunt growth.

 

[Ange's high line]

Everytime a new player filters through into the A League most of the time he is pretty much at that level or adjusts to that level before long.
Young players have needed more opportunities over the past 20 years, in a market which has not provided that for them.

 

[grazorblade]

Everytime a new player filters through into the A League most of the time he is pretty much at that level or adjusts to that level before long.
Young players have needed more opportunities over the past 20 years, in a market which has not provided that for them.

same as when players go to europe. It often isn't until the second year that you see them catch up

There are probably 100 npl players who would be a league level if given a run of opportunities over a couple of seasons, but adjusting to full time is hard

 

[patjennings]

same as when players go to europe. It often isn't until the second year that you see them catch up

There are probably 100 npl players who would be a league level if given a run of opportunities over a couple of seasons, but adjusting to full time is hard

That's where the NST comes in. Many of the best NPL players would not be able to afford to give up there main career that they have spent years in. Young players gravitating to a NST playing against teams seeded from the 120 odd NPL seeded clubs into a higher level would not be giving up long held careers and can afford to take a shot at playing full time.

 

[Monoethnic Social Club]

That's short term thinking. We need to consider long term viability.

Sure, but perhaps it is in our better interest to focus on ALL 1400 odd clubs from the bottom up rather than just 11?

If that was the case, then there would be an overflow of talent knocking down A-league club doors. That isn't happening. Extra A-league clubs means drawing from NPL playing pools. Those clubs then need to draw from their younger base and if you have younger players moving up too quickly, you stunt growth.

Perhaps, allowing the NPL clubs an opportunity to compete against the best national clubs in the country in a meaningfull way may drive in increase in professinalism at these clubs? A better amalgamation of the playing pool (already being seen in anticipation of next years NST, clubs are starting to hoover up the cream of the crop from NPL) and thus a better "crop" of players for the Aleague clubs to "harvest" ... its worth a shot at least?

 

[NicCarBel]

Sure, but perhaps it is in our better interest to focus on ALL 1400 odd clubs from the bottom up rather than just 11?

My stats/database finally coming handy

 

[Monoethnic Social Club]

My stats/database finally coming handy

Your database is EXACTLY why I think geographical franchise expansion isnt the solution Nic.... We already have clubs all over this country, any franchsie is just going to be a parasitic entity feeding of the hard work of generations before it for the financial benefit of a blow in..... we need to reward the hard work of hundreds of thousands of volunteers, not take advantage of them.

 

[someguyjc]

That's short term thinking. We need to consider long term viability.

No such thing as long term viability in Australian Football. A-League clubs only exist because wealthy owners are willing to pump in cash and take losses year after year. Nothing sustainable or viable about that. The only time we see clubs in the black is when they manage to pickup some good international transfer fees. Which is fine, however that would happen way more often if we had an NST as well as a DTS to ensure our most talented young players are developing into pro-players much earlier than they are now.

If that was the case, then there would be an overflow of talent knocking down A-league club doors. That isn't happening. Extra A-league clubs means drawing from NPL playing pools. Those clubs then need to draw from their younger base and if you have younger players moving up too quickly, you stunt growth.

There isn't actually that many opportunities for young NPL players at A-League clubs due to the way the cap (more importantly the cap floor) is setup. Clubs need to hit that salary floor and you can't do that by signing a bunch of young NPL players. A-League clubs are also incentivised to promote players through their own academies and their own NPL sides, so players at other NPL clubs have reduced opportunities regardless of how good they are. A-League expansion doesn't actually help the situation all that much unless it's through promotion of existing clubs that already have a complete grassroots setup.

 

[LFC]

well said someguyfc.
I just can't fathom people thinking that the top is the place to look ahead to nuture and wait till it expands to 15 16 18 Clubs.
Over how long do you forget what is lacking beneath.
Tell me fellas those more in the know, 13 APL Clubs how many Pro players ? say 20 for eg is 260, happy to see the actual number.

NPL young potential hopefuls anyone take a punt on numbers ?

14k football clubs in the country.
1.2+ registered adult players.
Something around 650+k ? Jnrs registered.
The above was a quick google and from 2020 so I'm likely way out now.

All I see also its damn cheaper structuring a NST or whatever comp + structuring and supporting down to YL to grass roots a better eco system.
Seriously like WTF.