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Expansion Thread

LFC said:

I have a couple of ex team mates still reffing Prem1/O35/45's etc depending where they are assigned.
All for the passion, around $60/70/80/90 bucks depending age/experience don't know what AR's get.
Muz is a local ref be interesting what NNSW pay.

Coaching pay is too low I'm led to believe by some spoken with (talking NPL3 down/YL) , they are pulled pillar to post one guy was saying when your a young bloke, toss either being a student/or work and then get to trainings 2/3/4 nights then weekend games.

MSC is a new remake of Troy in the making :)
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Not sure about other feds, but Capital Football has a published doc on how much referees are paid per game:
 
Monoethnic Social Club said:
Not trying to be contrary but what happens to all these players once they are too old for the school league? I agree with you 100% that pathways are broken and also to some degree that "Player pathways. Coach development. Nepotism. Infrastructure. Access to opportunity." are fundamental problems that need to be tackled and overcome.... But.... one of the ways that would help towards that is clearing up the bottleneck that occurs once these players reach a certain age and they have no other options apart from:
- sit on the bench and hope for gametime in one of 11 Australian clubs
- play NPL and work a primary job --
- go overseas and try your luck somewhere, anywhere
- stop playing alltogether.
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If you create a 2nd tier comp you are not creating more clubs. The clubs are still the same, so those players after school are still going to the same clubs. It's just the main NPL sides that essentially become the 2nd tier side.
LFC said:
State body's don't vary that much that I'm led to believe without looking into it, all have pretty similar league/systems down to grass roots you'd think.
NPL again each State have their own minor diffs but nothing out of the ordinary but seems FQ being 1 of the major east coast is the outlier the way that guy has been un co operative.
Absolutely agree coaching needs alot more support - $'s to encourage more get into it and taking up a C license a given.
Costs absorbed - plus intended new coachs should sign a 2 yr min agreement.
Where does QAS fit in though ? like an old AIS ?
Why not have the eco system from grass roots SAP to NPL1 or NST filter the players through ?
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QAS does not really work as an AIS. If anything it works as competition to the other clubs.
 
zimbos05 said:
If you create a 2nd tier comp you are not creating more clubs. The clubs are still the same, so those players after school are still going to the same clubs. It's just the main NPL sides that essentially become the 2nd tier side.
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Correct, but you are creating the opportunity for 200+ players to sign professional contracts and focus primarily on their football careers. At the same time 10-12 clubs are also being promoted into NPL to fill the void left by the departing NST clubs (and so on). That's a bunch more players competing at a slightly higher level. We don't need to create more clubs. The country is full of them. When it comes to player pathways one key area that is lacking is the opportunities for the absolute elite players in that 16-22 age group. This is when players are deciding whether they should pursue a football career or not. Adding a couple of new A-League franchises only gives "opportunity" to a dozen or so young players who will waste those valuable years missing out on actual competitive game minutes. An NST also provides an avenue for AL clubs to loan out young players to NST squads to actually get minutes.
 
Ange's high line said:
The A League Must get to 16 teams, promotion from NST as part of it, with 30 regular rounds or the comp stays broken, as incomplete.
Need this to work, to then work on positioning themselves to start pro/rel. That's where we should be.
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14 teams for mine.

Play everyone twice and then the finals series + Cup games. Thats still 30-35 games for a lot of clubs. A 30 game season + finals is too long + you will have to play a lot of mid-week games which clubs hate.

Bring in Canberra and the Sunshine Coast.

NST should have 14 teams also. Must have representation from Tasmania, SA and WA. Id limit it to three teams each from NSW and Vic considering already strong representation in the A-league

One thing i haven't taken into account is if Pro/rel does come around, how do the NZ clubs manage? They wont be relegated to an Australian Second division.
 
CentreHalf said:
14 teams for mine.

Play everyone twice and then the finals series + Cup games. Thats still 30-35 games for a lot of clubs. A 30 game season + finals is too long + you will have to play a lot of mid-week games which clubs hate.

Bring in Canberra and the Sunshine Coast.

NST should have 14 teams also. Must have representation from Tasmania, SA and WA. Id limit it to three teams each from NSW and Vic considering already strong representation in the A-league

One thing i haven't taken into account is if Pro/rel does come around, how do the NZ clubs manage? They wont be relegated to an Australian Second division.
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Could always be a MoU between NZF and APL/FA that if Wellington/Auckland are relegated from 2nd tier, they are to go back to the NZ pyramid.

Alternatively, these two clubs could be set up in NSW, NNSW or QLD (probably the 3 closest re: travel time for them) to just sit in their pyramid. Although, highly doubt that will work, as state NPL sides will never travel to NZ for a game (unless paid for by the federation)
 
CentreHalf said:
14 teams for mine.

Play everyone twice and then the finals series + Cup games. Thats still 30-35 games for a lot of clubs. A 30 game season + finals is too long + you will have to play a lot of mid-week games which clubs hate.

Bring in Canberra and the Sunshine Coast.

NST should have 14 teams also. Must have representation from Tasmania, SA and WA. Id limit it to three teams each from NSW and Vic considering already strong representation in the A-league

One thing i haven't taken into account is if Pro/rel does come around, how do the NZ clubs manage? They wont be relegated to an Australian Second division.
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Pretty good summary I can relate but I struggle to limit the 2 largest markets depending IF when other region as mentioned can happen and successful.
I suppose thats APL's side that I'm not overly fussed of but they do need their comp in order so as it can be absorb or come to an agreement in the years ahead re P/R NST.

Re NZ, I think thats the complication part of that franchise systems creates.
As someguyfc mentions, we got PLENTY of Clubs.
Yes some would never consider stepping up ala NST but plenty would in years ahead would.
Therefore imo its over for NZ Clubs.
They are not in our lwer levels, they are involved by license alone.
They will need to start buidling their own product back home in the end.
 
LFC said:
As someguyfc mentions, we got PLENTY of Clubs.
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Just looking at the NST process there were 32 clubs formally express interest and 26 of those clubs were asked to submit proposals. Obviously the criteria was a bit steep for most, but it does demonstrate there are no shortage of clubs with the ambition and drive to move to the next level.
 
correct, stage by stage.
Main thng is getting this going, once it starts and we get 1 season over onto the next and next this will have a knock off effect.
I just can't see why not as along as the FA and Clubs keep their fingers on pulse and not over extend themselves.
This doesn't need shit and glitter - just provide a good 90min match experience, no frills, just organic Clubs trying looking to grow.
Meet criteria covered seating, food vendors, good ground annoucements, bring on the local footballers.
Like TD's scream out - lets play !
 
LFC said:
Pretty good summary I can relate but I struggle to limit the 2 largest markets depending IF when other region as mentioned can happen and successful.
I suppose thats APL's side that I'm not overly fussed of but they do need their comp in order so as it can be absorb or come to an agreement in the years ahead re P/R NST.

Re NZ, I think thats the complication part of that franchise systems creates.
As someguyfc mentions, we got PLENTY of Clubs.
Yes some would never consider stepping up ala NST but plenty would in years ahead would.
Therefore imo its over for NZ Clubs.
They are not in our lwer levels, they are involved by license alone.
They will need to start buidling their own product back home in the end.
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It already exists, and even has a streaming deal with FIFA+ (probably not worth anything financially to be honest, but still)
Will be more lucrative for them anyways given the Club World Cup expansion.
 
someguyjc said:
Correct, but you are creating the opportunity for 200+ players to sign professional contracts and focus primarily on their football careers. At the same time 10-12 clubs are also being promoted into NPL to fill the void left by the departing NST clubs (and so on). That's a bunch more players competing at a slightly higher level. We don't need to create more clubs. The country is full of them. When it comes to player pathways one key area that is lacking is the opportunities for the absolute elite players in that 16-22 age group. This is when players are deciding whether they should pursue a football career or not. Adding a couple of new A-League franchises only gives "opportunity" to a dozen or so young players who will waste those valuable years missing out on actual competitive game minutes. An NST also provides an avenue for AL clubs to loan out young players to NST squads to actually get minutes.
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perfect response... agree 100%
 
someguyjc said:
Just looking at the NST process there were 32 clubs formally express interest and 26 of those clubs were asked to submit proposals. Obviously the criteria was a bit steep for most, but it does demonstrate there are no shortage of clubs with the ambition and drive to move to the next level.
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Many of the clubs (and lets not forget they each coughed up 5k I belevie to fund the financial modelling back then) went in to the process knowing they are years away from being ready... BUT STILL want the opportunity to compete ... if nothing else this should be the signal that there are many shoulders under this NST all pushing in the same direction.
 
someguyjc said:
Correct, but you are creating the opportunity for 200+ players to sign professional contracts and focus primarily on their football careers. At the same time 10-12 clubs are also being promoted into NPL to fill the void left by the departing NST clubs (and so on). That's a bunch more players competing at a slightly higher level. We don't need to create more clubs. The country is full of them. When it comes to player pathways one key area that is lacking is the opportunities for the absolute elite players in that 16-22 age group. This is when players are deciding whether they should pursue a football career or not. Adding a couple of new A-League franchises only gives "opportunity" to a dozen or so young players who will waste those valuable years missing out on actual competitive game minutes. An NST also provides an avenue for AL clubs to loan out young players to NST squads to actually get minutes.
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Again, you need that level of money to compete. A liveable salary is what, 85-90k a year? Assuming every player is on the 85k minimum, that's 17M a year for 200 players. To also replace those clubs in the NPL, you need to have clubs who can step up. Not many clubs can step up to the NPL level.

I agree with the second point on adding 1 or 2 clubs to the A-league is not a huge pool to expand with, however, you need to consider that we wont have a long conveyor belt of players ready to step up if all of a sudden we create a 2nd tier. There will be quite a gap as the development of players is not up to the standard required. Again, we need to sure up the structure whilst building at the top. We are doing neither of those things.
 
zimbos05 said:
Again, you need that level of money to compete. A liveable salary is what, 85-90k a year? Assuming every player is on the 85k minimum, that's 17M a year for 200 players. To also replace those clubs in the NPL, you need to have clubs who can step up. Not many clubs can step up to the NPL level.

I agree with the second point on adding 1 or 2 clubs to the A-league is not a huge pool to expand with, however, you need to consider that we wont have a long conveyor belt of players ready to step up if all of a sudden we create a 2nd tier. There will be quite a gap as the development of players is not up to the standard required. Again, we need to sure up the structure whilst building at the top. We are doing neither of those things.
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Your calculations are way way off mate. With the reduction of the salary cap, A-League clubs aren't even spending that much on players. From memory the current min wage as set in the CBA for an A-League player aged 16-19 is 55k. As I mentioned in an earlier post, football in Australia is not a career choice for young people who don't have support structure around them.
The NPL already has multi tier P&R. Clubs are actively trying to get promoted to the next level already. Absolutely no problem filling that void as the system is already in place. No shortage of clubs ready to step up.
Disagree about shortage of players. Just look at the Australia Cup. Plenty of players are ready to step up. Conveyor belt is huge, just not enough opportunities.
 
JohnKasich said:
You do realise that you don't need a Fremantle passport to support the team?

To follow Melbourne City do you have to live in Melbourne city? Lots of West Australians that live south of the river would identify themselves as Fremantledoms.

Up the Sailors!!! Freo, heav hooo!!!
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Wouldn’t a better name for them be the Fremantle Seamen?
 
someguyjc said:
Your calculations are way way off mate. With the reduction of the salary cap, A-League clubs aren't even spending that much on players. From memory the current min wage as set in the CBA for an A-League player aged 16-19 is 55k. As I mentioned in an earlier post, football in Australia is not a career choice for young people who don't have support structure around them.
The NPL already has multi tier P&R. Clubs are actively trying to get promoted to the next level already. Absolutely no problem filling that void as the system is already in place. No shortage of clubs ready to step up.
Disagree about shortage of players. Just look at the Australia Cup. Plenty of players are ready to step up. Conveyor belt is huge, just not enough opportunities.
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Ok, so not many will take 55k a year and be able to survive on that. I can't really see many just keeping that as their only job.
Yes NPL has P&R, I didn't say it didn't but some of the clubs in the lower tiers don't have set squads. There's a lot of chopping and changing between the levels.
There is a difference between having players, and having players of the standard.
 
zimbos05 said:
Ok, so not many will take 55k a year and be able to survive on that. I can't really see many just keeping that as their only job.
Yes NPL has P&R, I didn't say it didn't but some of the clubs in the lower tiers don't have set squads. There's a lot of chopping and changing between the levels.
There is a difference between having players, and having players of the standard.
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Correct for some people 55k is not enough, for others it is an acceptable stepping stone. A 17 year old on 55k a year to play football while living with Mum & Dad is a pretty damn good deal. Much better than working the fryer at Maccas or stacking shelves at Woolies.
I have no concerns about the standard of players. Our players are good, they just don't have the opportunities. You give them the opportunities and the standard rises.
 
someguyjc said:
Correct for some people 55k is not enough, for others it is an acceptable stepping stone. A 17 year old on 55k a year to play football while living with Mum & Dad is a pretty damn good deal. Much better than working the fryer at Maccas or stacking shelves at Woolies.
I have no concerns about the standard of players. Our players are good, they just don't have the opportunities. You give them the opportunities and the standard rises.
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Football does not exist outside of the economic system. For a 17 year old at home, yes, but not everyone in one of those sides in a 17 year old living at home.
Having coached at an NPL level, I have some concerns about standards.
 
zimbos05 said:
Football does not exist outside of the economic system. For a 17 year old at home, yes, but not everyone in one of those sides in a 17 year old living at home.
Having coached at an NPL level, I have some concerns about standards.
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Correct, and unfortunately for them it becomes a very difficult choice. It sucks, but that's the way it is. In order for wages to increase, player value needs to increase. In order for player value to increase, players need to be playing (not sitting on the bench) at the highest possible competitive level. In order for that to happen, more playing opportunities at higher levels need to be created.
 
I'm sure your having concerns for NPL zimbos and I think from the Qld aspect rightly so and what we keep seeing in the press.

Moreton City made the AC Qrtrs.
QLions R16
Briz Olympic R16

They looked competitive - I know thats not enough but its showing the potential.
Your concerns are valid but as you know I'm big on change for its so so so overdue call it a reset.
We got the players, countless potentials, as years progress your concerns get addressed bit by bit, more players improving, salaries adjust, people adjust zimbos.
Obviously it needs the FA to get their finger on the pulse and direct - the Clubs and many as someguyfc mentions have put their hand up.
Give them the path and lets ride the rocky wave.
 
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